Haden

[mz.]

Originally Posted by plumcrazy73

Yea Chris Spielman, from my hometown, I know him a little personally, and I respect the hell out of him, he walked away from the game to be with his wife who has Cancer even though he loved football so much he put his family first.

He was a great player, I was happy as hell when Cleveland drafted him in the expansion draft unfortunately he got hurt.

He always played the game with his heart, always was told your too slow, always proved the critics wrong.

I understand, I just never thought of him as a Brown, that's all.

[Sez.EJ]

Originally Posted by Shep

Read some super-secret camp updates (!), and the blender version is this: Lauvao, Hardesty, Ward, and Assante are getting love in camp. The latter two are basically starting together because Elam is out, and their speed and athleticism is pleasing the coaches. Even in shorts, Lauvao has looked technically better than expected, especially footwork. And Hardesty continues to be a favorite.

Even Carlton Mitchell, he of the dinged hammie, is getting some love. He's seen not as a project but as a guy who needs a little coaching and refinement.

Haden, on the other hand, is said to have struggled early ("miscues") and now is getting his sea legs. I read in two different outlets that the Browns are liking Wright and Brown as the starters, and that they're "practicing hungry" and clicking together.

So... it looks like we not only drafted a corner at #7, but a backup corner. I'm sorry, guys and gals, but you can spin that any way you want and it'll still be a bizarre Top 10 pick.

Again, you ask anyone what draft price they'd pay for a nickel corner who might start in a couple years... and I damn well guarantee you the answer isn't a number seven overall.

It was a fucked up pick.

Shep your a putz:
basing an opinion on a player after the first mini camp. Yeah, I ususally don't resort to name calling but this is really (using your word) chickenshitting this guy.. so yeah. putz... This guy is going to nail down a spot for the next decade. Even if he struggles early.. may not start day one.. you are missing the big picture dude. so.. So lets play what if..what if he's plays little year one then is a stud for 9 subsequent years..is it still a bad pick because he did not wow everyone in his FIRST minicamp.. too early too harsh dude..

[samoth]

Shep, Get off the internet until pre season, it will do you a world of good. life is too short to spend your time stressing about whether a 1st round cornerback will be a bust or not during May training camp.

[Tobalaz]

Grab a twix and chew on this.
IF we had drafted Haden THEN traded for Brown We'd all be completly thrilled right now because we addressed our biggest need in the draft at #7, then strengthened that position through trade. We'd all be agreeing that it was brilliant because you need 3 good corners to run a defense in a passing league after seeing the effects of Terry Cousins and Hank Pothole as our 3rd corners of the past few seasons allowing our defense to be completely shredded in nickle and dime formations.
Yes sir, we'd all be thrilled right now.

I'm sorry if anyone feels that a #7 overall pick should be able to walk in and just be given the starting job over 2 established veterans with good NFL track records. Haden will have Wright beat out as our #2 corner by the time we start game #1.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Alo

Also, it's good to hear that McCoy's impressed with his accuracy and "better-than-anticipated arm strength".

It is nice to hear Alo. However, alot of the criticism gets blown out of proportion on guys that don't fit the prototypical size/crib sheet. I fully understand we can find enough passes over 4 years a talented opponent can undercut. That said, it's not like I didn't see Peyton Manning getting a route undercut for a pick 6 in the Superbowl OR Brett Favre throwing a floater across his body vrs a pass rush he wasn't used to for an INT to end a game. The CALIBER of opponents picking off the future HOF QBs ranged from Conference Championship opponents to Superbowl Championship opponent (same team really). THEREFORE, alot of McCoy's pre-draft critics LOVED to break out the Nebraska highlights with the "see there's the noodle arm." Like countless others would have been able to step INTO the throw vrs Suh and Co? Not really. And yes, ALOT of the highlights I've seen showcasing this alleged weak arm showed me correctable mechanics to lessen the concern.

Anyway, the NFL channel did a special on the top 10 QBs that weren't drafted. Needless to say when they got to Warren Moon - arm strength and non-conventional offense were the top 2 reasons why he had to go to Canada to prove himself 1 more time. Was there ever REALLY anything wrong with his arm strength in the first place? At that point in time, skin color was part of the unwritten prototypical. McCoy's non-prototypical was REALLY supposed to be his height, which people are getting kind of pleasantly surprised about today. And coincidentally, we're reading his arm got stronger virtually overnight.

I always caution (because I learned the hard way myself), be careful about takign a small extract and making it the rule. Concerns are fine BUT you HAVE to look at why a guy throws off his back foot (ie; Nebraska - did we ever see OTHER Qbs stepping into the throw with Suh closing in?) No, because there's prolly not any film of that to find. Like Mayock and others cautioned as early as the Indy combines, McCoy didn't have a GREAT oline (he called it very overrated and average) as a senior. His top receiver ran dangerously close to a 4.7 forty at Indy and couldn't maintain his balance at the combines ANY time he couldn't run straight ahead there. When McCoy had Quan Cosby working tandem with Jordan Shipley - he threw for 3859 yards, 34 TDs and only 8 INTs with a comp % of 76.7%.

As an Ohio State fan, I remember Quan Cosby had 14 catches for 172 yards and 2 TDs in that Fiesta Bowl heartbreak. Not only that, but McCoy threw for 419 yards and was completely calm and cool with the task of erasing the 4 point deficit on an 11 play 78 yard drive. The last strike was a 26 yard TD pass with only 16 seconds remaining on the clock. I can't help it - he reminds me of Brian Sipe as a leader. Not ALWAYS pretty, rarely protypical, but he's the leader behind center igniting the comeback. As BAD as that Nebraska game looked (and Sipe had days like that) - and I know there was divine intervention but Texas WON that game. How many of the critics that questioned McCoy's toughness would have WANTED to stay in the game and wear Suh over their jersey. I'm comfortable saying not-a-one.

Winners WIN even when the first 58-59 minutes were absolutely forgettable. Hocus pocus seems to follow guys that refuse to listen to their critics and stay tapped into how they are wired. Sipe wasn't supposed to MAKE an NFL team but HE defined himself as a league MVP. That adorable weak arm of his threw for yardages we never saw until the league CHANGED the rules to promote more scoring. He had an average of 4000 yards passing per season in a 3 year span when that was unthinkable. Not bad for a 13th round draft pick.
- Tom F. (Even if you don't LIKE my thinking about McCoy - he was the ONLY QB in this draft Holmgren MADE Heckert & Mangini take)

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Sez.EJ

This guy is going to nail down a spot for the next decade. Even if he struggles early.. may not start day one.. you are missing the big picture dude. so.. So lets play what if..what if he's plays little year one then is a stud for 9 subsequent years..is it still a bad pick because he did not wow everyone in his FIRST minicamp.. too early too harsh dude..

FWIW, being the 3rd corner as a rookie to the more exerienced Sheldon Brown and Eric Wright means he'll play about 50% of the reps with the 1st defense. Today, 1st downs and 3rd downs are passing downs so it may be even more than 50% of the reps.

I don't think the Patriots CUT Tom Brady because he wore blue jeans to his first 15 NFL games as a wide eyed rookie. Therefore, if we have a corner we get acclimated to the NFL passing games with at least half our defensive reps - he has the CHANCE to do what Anthony Henry did snagging 10 INTs in this SAME role. However, according to those videos, the former QB was beating alot of QBs back into their dropback on the blitz so there's another feature he might REALLY benefit our 3-4 with off the edge.

As much as people don't want to acknowledge Mangini's eye for defensive talent - his choices of Revis and Harris gave the Jets their best 2 defenders in 2009 convenient or not. Let's not kid ourselves, if we didn't add Sheldon Brown - Haden would already be starting at corner over Brandon McDonald. They're not just going to hand the kid Brown's or Wright's spot with 0 NFL experience under his belt. Doesn't mean he sucks just like it never meant Tom Brady sucked when he was told to show to games in civilian clothes as a rookie. It's not like we're making Haden a waterboy. He's gonna play quite a bit in a role that might even make him the favorable side of a matchup (a la Anthony Henry as a rookie covering the 3rd receiver). For our sake, I hope he's not already better than Brown and Wright in the absence of NFL experience or we might be in trouble.

If anyone needs to feel better about what Haden can add to a defense find those Youtube videos that were shared about 4 weeks ago and enjoy. My football wood factor went from balsa to sekoya.
- Tom F.

[Shep]

Tom, Brady was a sixth round pick.

Guys, you're spewing some mean names and stomping your feet and making a lot of big boy talk (first sign that you all know I'm right)... but it is what it is.

This was a weird pick. Brown was paid starter money and I'm pretty sure he was told he's a starter. Eric Wright is a good cover guy on the ascent, and sitting him makes no sense. Yes, we needed to add a corner in the draft, and almost certainly no later than round 3, but we did NOT need to take one at #7.

For me, two things need to align to draft a corner that high: First, he has to be the best corner prospect of the past five years. I don't believe that's the consensus on Haden. He has holes in his game. His footwork needs polishing. He's not a burner. Sure, he's really good and deserved to be a first round draft choice.

Second, you need to have an opening at the position for a day one starter. A screaming need. With Brown and Wright, the Browns no longer had that screaming need for a day one starter. They needed to draft a guy to be the third corner and develop into a starter over a year or two.

That is NOT a #7 value. It just isn't.

I think the Browns got a little boxed in. They desperately wanted Bradford but couldn't get up high enough to get him. They had scratched the next two pass offense prospects off their board (Clausen and Bryant). They loved Eric Berry but it became more and more evident that he wouldn't be there.

So the names became Haden, Thomas, and Spiller, or so I read. Spiller didn't seem like the power back the Browns envisioned for December winters. And in the end, they couldn't trade out and it became Haden or Thomas. They picked the top corner over the #2 safety.

I get it. A lot of it wasn't up to the Browns. But I think the end result is the same: It wasn't a pick that we'll look at as a great value making great impact.

And geez, guys, settle down. We're talking about football at a time when there isn't all that much to talk about. Try to have a grownup discussion/debate without having a little hissy fit. That's embarrassing.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Shep

Tom, Brady was a sixth round pick.

LOL! Is that REALLY all he is? He's mentioned in many best-of-alltime conversations so CUTTING him because he couldn't dress for 15 of his first 16 games as a pro would have been a HUGE mistake.

That said, he was once indeed a rookie that wasn't allowed to start over somebody more experienced at his position whether it's convenient to this arguement or not. Can you tell me who NE's first round pick was in 2000? A TALENTED player is a talented player regardless of what round he comes from. The goal of any draft is to add talented players even if they are undrafted FAs AFTER round 7 snubbed like a Marcus Benard.

I think we often lose sight of reality of what it takes to put a rookie on the field fulltime. Was it rotten we added an experienced Sheldon Brown before we drafted Haden? Not at all. And do we just bench Brown or Wright in May for the rookie Corner? That wouldn't be very level-headed. It IS possible for a rookie like Anthony Henry in such a role to contribute 10 INTs. Now, understanding Haden is also skilled at blitzing off the edge - we may not need him to JUST intercept passes.

This is only negative if you NEED it to be. And why would you need this to be negative? Haden is going to play about 50 to 66% of the downs on defense as the #3 corner. Depending upon his progress - that 3rd corner vrs 3rd WR might often be a favorable matchup for our defense. Again, what sucks about that? I think this is more of an understanding of what Ryan and Mangini WANT to do with our defense. I can assure you - we will see plenty of Haden with our starting D. It'll make more sense when the season gets underway. Not to be redundant but who here remembered how part time Anthony Henry was when he contributed 10 INTs as a rookie? That rookie season facing 3rd WRs would be the most favorable matchups he would enjoy in his NFL career. I think his next team would learn the hard way he would never have the upside of a 1st round corner to be able to handle facing #1 WRs or #2 WRs the opponent was beating him with consistently. That right there MIGHT be the best example of the difference between a 4th round corner and a 1st round corner. Haden will have the upside Henry proved he never had. Dallas dearly overpaid on a false positive FA they expected to man down their #1 corner spot. And Henry would never again see those favorable matchups Cleveland spoiled him with as a rookie.
- Tom F.

[Vegasdogg]

Originally Posted by Shep

but it is what it is. This was a weird pick.

According to YOU it was a wierd pick. Why you need everyone to come 100% to your way of thinking as if consensus is needed drives me crazy. You have opinions, that's all they are. "It is what it is" or "this is a retarded debate" or "there is not debate on this" are just three phrases you like to utilize to stop debate and end discussion.

If you would just stop with the adamant comments and begin opening up to more views on subjects, less arguments would start.

You're the only one I know saying this was a wierd pick, so it's not a question of "it is what it is," but more like "it is what Shep says it is."

Jesus man, you can't let this thing go, can you?

[Alo]

Go back and watch the SEC Championship Game. It'll make the Haden pick seem a lot less "weird".

[Solon16]

Its fucking May........ one ota.......... and he is not a starter? Give it a rest , if he isn't starting when its september then bring it up. Geeeeeeezzzz

[nmills]

this was tweeted earlier

"QB, LT, DE, CB: teams R paying $15 mil+ per season 4 the elites. WRs, DTs, LBs have crossed the $10 mil+ mark, 2. RBs soon 2 join $10 mil+."

When teams talk about getting good value for a top pick, there looking for QB, LT, DE/OLB, CB. These are positions that eat the most money out of you salary cap, if you can get a rookie to hold that position down without paying the big bucks thats value. CB's are the highest paid position defensively, how is it weird to try to fill that need by drafting one top 10 rather than pick one up in free agency at an astronomical price