Haden

[Shep]

Tom, I meant there wasn't pressure on the Pats to start Brady right away.

[Alo]

Originally Posted by nmills

this was tweeted earlier

"QB, LT, DE, CB: teams R paying $15 mil+ per season 4 the elites. WRs, DTs, LBs have crossed the $10 mil+ mark, 2. RBs soon 2 join $10 mil+."

When teams talk about getting good value for a top pick, there looking for QB, LT, DE/OLB, CB. These are positions that eat the most money out of you salary cap, if you can get a rookie to hold that position down without paying the big bucks thats value. CB's are the highest paid position defensively, how is it weird to try to fill that need by drafting one top 10 rather than pick one up in free agency at an astronomical price

Good post. And for anyone wondering, those numbers came from Charles Robinson @YahooSportsNFL.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Shep

Tom, I meant there wasn't pressure on the Pats to start Brady right away.

And there's ZERO pressure to start Haden every single down on defense as a rookie now that we added Sheldon Brown first. Is that BAD we made our top 3 corners Wright, Brown and Haden instead of Wright, McDonald and Adams? Are you trying to tell us you'd be much more comfortable with the latter 3? If so, you did a very nice job with that.

FWIW, Haden will be on the field quite a bit on passing downs (today, that's 1st and 3rd down). If we didn't add Brown - Haden would already be a fulltime starter week 1 of the regular season. I wouldn't get too concerned that reports about Haden are ONLY good in May. Every year, like clockwork, we'd get our Dennis Northcutt is heading for breakout season reports in the passing game in May. Of course, May only includes shorts and t-shirts so it's never an apples to apples to the real thing ahead. When the contact began, Northcutt needed ear plugs, courage and sidelines. Not a good fit for a slot receiver that's supposed to shred the middle of the field.

In prior years, I USED to hate the idea of drafting a corner in round 1. The game has changed so much to promote more scoring and handcuff secondaries that you can NEVER have enough top athletes like Haden in your secondary. Nmills shared some interesting reality about the 4 highest paid positions, which includes corner. Speaking of which, guess what trumped Peyton Manning & Brett Favre in the post season? A secondary WITH playmakers in it. The thing I remember most about the SB was the Manning pick 6 and the Conference Championship before it was the Favre INT. If passing games are the main reason teams are competing in the post season - you HAVE prepare to defend them or you're not gonna be one of those teams in the post season. There's an old saying: "if you fail to prepare - then prepare to fail."

The SAME guy that drafted Revis long before many knew who he was or what college he played for - participated in the decision for us to snag Haden. He's also the SAME guy that coached up a veteran WR in NE to play corner for them. Mangini's specialty before BB promoted him to DC was the secondary so it might not kill us to put a little more trust in this decision. I think he knows a good DB when he sees one. That doesn't have to be so doom and gloom guy.

In this draft, we addressed secondary (and added a solid FA), we addressed RB (to make it a feature in the passing game too), QB (as well as in free agency), and we added a 6'3" WR target with big play ability as well as an OG and DE. In free agency, we continued to add names and depth to the LB & TE positions so I think we hit about every area we could. And we also gave some FA pesos to Pashos to come in and compete for a starting job on the right side. It looks like we addressed every weakness and added depth where needed. Not a BAD way to combat 1 pick remaining from the 2008 draft that had no day 1 and looking like it had very little day 2.
- Tom F.

[Vegasdogg]

Yeah Shep, as you can read this was clearly not your most well thought out position. Complaining because we're strong @ CB? God forbid we have 3 good CB's.

But absent Haden, I'd like to known your starting 3 CB's. Keep in mind Wilson was off the board @ 38.

[Shep]

Tom, where did I say I would be more comfortable "with the latter three?"

The point is that we made a terrific veteran pickup prior to the draft in Sheldon Brown. Brown and Wright are a very good set of starting corners.

On top of that, I would have happily used a 2nd or 3rd on a corner.

Guys, you all struggle to debate/disagree without turning douchey. If you think I'm the only one questioning whether Haden was a great value pick for the Browns after signing Sheldon Brown, you're fooling yourself. It was not a highly trumpeted pick. You can make a solid supportive rationale, but you still end up with this: We're talking about making Haden the first top 10 corner in five years... and chances are he won't even start.

I feel pretty strongly that for a corner to be worthy of a #7 pick, he has to be absolutely epic. And that would include being good enough to start his rookie year, like Revis. Otherwise, he should've been picked later in the round, like Kyle Wilson and Kareem McKenzie.

OF COURSE I thought out my position, and it's a very strong one, Veg. You guys are coming from a nonepistemic place of WANTING to love the pick. Prior to the draft, I'd say Haden was the favorite pick of about 10% of this board at best.

Only AFTER the pick did he become popular. I get it. It's the commitment to approval of your favorite teams moves. But I'd be a hypocrite if I said I liked the choice.

But please understand... I would have picked a corner somewhere pretty early in the draft.

Who did I want? In a trade down, some names that really appeal to me would've been Dez Bryant, Ryan Matthews, Kyle Wilson, Brandon Graham, and, yes, Jimmy Clausen. We would have probably added an extra 3rd, meaning we probably get a pretty serious DL or OLB in addition to what we got.

I have this feeling that taking Bryant or Matthews at 7 instead of Haden won't look so crazy by the end of the year. But I understand that it would have looked nutty in April.

I think Haden ends up being a very good cornerback. But for me, that won't justify a #7 pick. He needs to be a Pro Bowler in year two... and then for the next five years, too. We need to see him as a vital piece of the championship puzzle. He needs to be spoken of in the same breath as Revis.

So we'll see.

[DawgFan]

Nice piece about this on ClevelandBrowns.com

Brown enjoys secondary work

By Matt Florjancic, Contributor to ClevelandBrowns.com
Posted May 21, 2010
Browns DB Sheldon Brown is using a change of scenery from Philadelphia to Cleveland as a chance once again to showcase his skills.

Change is not always a bad thing.
In the case of new Browns defensive back Sheldon Brown, a change of scenery from Philadelphia to Cleveland has given him new competition during Organized Team Activities, while at the same time, reuniting him with the man who drafted him, Browns General Manager Tom Heckert Jr.
“I started in Philly every year,” Brown said. “Competition was key and I think competition brings out the best in everyone. I think they tried to run me out of Philly a few years, the last three or four years and here, I just want to make everyone better. If I’m not the guy, then I want to make the guy that wins the job better.
“Tom was a guy that was obviously a part of the draft back in ’02 when I was there,” he added. “He believed in my ability, I believe in him and I was happy to come.”
In Philadelphia, Brown learned how to be a professional from former Eagles defensive back Troy Vincent. Vincent spent 15 years in the NFL, including eight with the Eagles, four with the Dolphins, three with the Bills and his final year, in 2006, with the Redskins.
During his career, Vincent defended 50 passes, including a personal-best 24 in 2001. He also had 47 career interceptions and returned 3 for touchdowns. Vincent scored on interception returns of 58, 69 and 90 yards.
Fast forward eight years and now Brown finds himself in the role of mentor to the other Browns defensive backs. Brown is especially looking forward to working with the team’s draft picks from April in defensive back Joe Haden, along with safeties T.J. Ward and Larry Asante.
“Joe’s been great,” said Brown. “He’s one of those guys that grabbed me immediately, as soon as I walked in, and he’s willing to learn and listen. He kind of reminds me of when I came in. Troy Vincent was there with all of his knowledge. He’s willing to listen and I’m willing to give it to him.
“They’re willing to learn,” he added. “They’re willing to listen and they have been great thus far. They are flying around, that’s what’s important.”
While he has liked mentoring the younger Browns defenders, Brown has also enjoyed the opportunity to work with fourth year pro Eric Wright in the defensive backfield and defensive coordinator Rob Ryan.
“Eric is a heck of an athlete, a heck of a corner,” said Brown. “I don’t think he gets enough respect in this league. I’ve been following his game since he entered the league. He was brought into a situation where most rookies don’t play and he was out there battling. Last year, I thought he had a great season. He has great footwork, great quickness and he’s playing a position where he has to man up some and he does it.
“I love his intensity,” he added about Ryan. “I can’t wait to put on pads during the game and be able to hit someone and see how he reacts because he’s intense and he’s full-throttle all the time.”
Brown shares Ryan’s passion for the game of football, specifically when he is making tackles. Brown has not missed a game in eight NFL seasons and cannot wait for the players to start hitting in full pads.
“I think that sometimes it’s mind over matter,” Brown said of his durability. “You don’t want to let your teammates down and you don’t want to put another guy in a position if you don’t think he is prepared. Sometimes, you just force yourself to go out there and play. I have been very blessed to have been able to finish seasons.
“If you follow my football game, I’m more of a shoulder pad guy,” he added. “My game is built off of more being physical and tackling and doing that stuff. Right now, I’m just trying to get the mental aspect down.”
Brown enters the 2010 season at 31 years old and whether it is practicing in shorts and jerseys only or while wearing full pads, he will try to prove all the doubters wrong. That is something he is seeing a former teammate still do at 36 years old.
“Performance says it all,” said Brown. “It’s not really the age. Brian Dawkins is what, a 35, 36-year old safety? He’s a guy that I look up to and as long as he’s out there inspiring me, I’m going to be inspired to forget the number or age.
“I believe I’m a winner,” he concluded. “I believe I went 1-21 at the University of South Carolina my first two years and then I went out the next two seasons and won two Outback Bowls and beat Ohio State. The next year, they won the National title. I’m not a believer of living in the past. If you get caught up in the past, you’re never going to be anything.”

The 2 spots I highlighted (and the ones I BOLDED) are the what I consider to be the most impactful...and relevant to this conversation.

The first, that Joe Haden sought him out and immediately was looking for input is telling of the type of player we drafted. That all 3 of our new DB's willing to listen and are flying around gives us a hope that the backfield will be much improved this year.

The second, about Wright, makes you feel good about him...but hidden (not anymore) in the comment was the fact that MOST CB'S DO NOT START THEIR FIRST YEAR!!! In other words, guys like Revis not only are special players, but are put into a particular SITUATION that forces them to start every down. It is not the norm for that to happen.

So, the fact that Haden has the OPPORTUNITY to learn under a guy like Brown and grow into the position without getting burned immediately (like McDonald) is a BONUS for the Browns. The fact Brown is the type that can eventually go S if needed is even more of a bonus.

Our first round pick was a solid pick that is going to pay benefits for years to come...and the situation, for ONCE, is the RIGHT SITUATION for growth.

[Alo]

Yeah, it's clear that Haden fits the team's high character profile. The same can't be said for anyone Shep wants.

[Shep]

Originally Posted by Alo

Yeah, it's clear that Haden fits the team's high character profile. The same can't be said for anyone Shep wants.

C'mon. You're being disagreed with, not spitballed. Embrace it.

[Alo]

I'm not being nasty - just stating the obvious. You wanted Bryant and Clausen, each of whom had maturity/attitude concerns.

Turning around now and saying we should have traded down & drafted a whole different set of guys seems odd. And a little too convenient, given that most of them landed in close to ideal situations (Mathews as the feature back in SD, Graham as an end in Philly's attacking defense, etc.).

[Shep]

Nothing odd at all. I just don't like our first round pick. And I don't think Matthews is any more suited to be a feature back in San Diego than in Cleveland. Or that Dez Bryant will be any less or more an imposing WR in Dallas than anywhere else.

And I think Brandon Graham could be a 3-4 OLB for sure. And I don't think there's any huge guarantee of who will end better, Haden, Wilson, McKenzie, or McCourty. To me personally, they all felt like first round types, but in the 14-28 range. Not #7.

Just me, though. I totally respect that you and others disagree.

[Alo]

Originally Posted by Shep

And I think Brandon Graham could be a 3-4 OLB for sure.

Yahoo's Jason Cole wrote the following as part of his Draft Week Inconvenient Truths piece:

10. Graham is not a 3-4 outside linebacker
The book on former Michigan defensive end Brandon Graham is that he’s certain to go to a 4-3 scheme and play end, and can’t be the next LaMarr Woodley, who came out of Michigan at end and was moved to outside linebacker in the Pittsburgh Steelers’ 3-4 alignment. Teams don’t think Graham has the same range and instincts as Woodley and would struggle far more in the passing game. But they like his ability as a 4-3 end, particularly his fairly good balance against the run and pass. But he’s not expected to be the next guy who becomes a star standing up, a la Woodley or the Baltimore Ravens’ Terrell Suggs.

Cole wrote in the same article that Kyle Wilson would go before Haden, so the report about Graham isn't exactly gospel. But there's good reason to believe that Graham wasn't pegged to be the next Woodley. Graham didn't even do LB drills until his pro day, which - unfortunately - was closed to the media.

Originally Posted by Shep

And I don't think there's any huge guarantee of who will end better, Haden, Wilson, McKenzie, or McCourty. To me personally, they all felt like first round types, but in the 14-28 range. Not #7.

What are you basing that on? Media reports?

As I've said before, I came back to Haden at #7 after I studied Kareem Jackson closely. Though they're both physical corners, Jackson lacks the explosive burst that Haden possesses. And while Jackson timed better in Indy, he's the one I saw get beat deep, not Haden.

Wilson had some injury concerns that dropped his stock; McShay alluded to it and nfldraftscout's Chad Reuter confirmed it after the draft. Also, he lacks Haden's length, which could become an issue when he's matched up against big, physical receivers. If you watched Haden match up against Bama's Julio Jones (6'4", 210 lbs.), you know that's Joe's forte.

I liked McCourty a lot, especially with his added special teams value, but he too struggles to match up against big, physical wideouts. And he lacks exceptional ball skills.

Based on studying these guys, I think there's good reason to believe that Haden is a step above the other corners in this draft. No sure thing, but I like the odds.

But if you approach things with a predetermined distaste for taking Haden at #7, I could see why you would think all the corners are of approximately equal caliber.

[D'Qwimbley]

Originally Posted by Shep

OF COURSE I thought out my position, and it's a very strong one, Veg. You guys are coming from a nonepistemic place of WANTING to love the pick. Prior to the draft, I'd say Haden was the favorite pick of about 10% of this board at best.

Only AFTER the pick did he become popular. I get it. It's the commitment to approval of your favorite teams moves. But I'd be a hypocrite if I said I liked the choice.

Thats until Eric Berry got taken at 5, which then turned this board into about 85% Haden.


BTW, Alo's post above is excellent. Thats why he's by far the smartest guy on this board.