Haden

[Vegasdogg]

Originally Posted by YtownBacker

The funniest part of this whole debate

The funniest part of this whole debate is how premature it is. We know that Haden was pretty highly thought of by just about everyone who studies the draft, and he was a CONSENSUS Top 10 pick.

Somehow a top 10 CONSENSUS pick turned into the absurd pick.

If this had been on the offensive side of the ball and we had two WR's of the caliber of Wright and Brown respectively, we would hear the applause from California. We'd have 6 threads devoted to the pick, and various articles supporting 3 WR's on the team and how EVERYBODY knows you need 3 great WR's. (But CB's? Not so much.)

I am still confused how getting stronger against the pass in a passing league is absurd.

I think trashing Haden if he is not HOF caliber his first year is just about the dumbest thing I have heard yet. Comparing Haden to Revis after Revis' third season is also dumb. I am pretty sure other threads have come close, but this one is just dishonest and stupid.

Sorry, I could not hold that in any longer.

[Shep]

You're arguing against air. You need to read what I'm actually posting, not what's easier and more convenient to belittle. And now you think I'm being dishonest? I don't understand that. It might be some kind of unusual use of the word that I'm not familiar with.

You think I'm lying? Okay, so...

1. I'm not comparing Haden's rookie year to Revis' third year. Revis started as a rookie and had 83 tackles and 3 INTs. When you're the first top 10 corner in five years, that's the guy you have to live up to.

2. I'm not judging what Haden has done for the Browns so far at all. I didn't like the pick... and now I've read reports that it's highly possible that he won't start as a rookie. For a corner drafted at #7, or for almost ANY non-quarterback drafted in the top 10, there's no way to turn that turd into prime rib. It's an unusual pick, at least in my book.

3. Haden was NOT a consensus top 10 pick by the time the draft rolled around. He had slid to the point that i'd guess his average slot at around 14.

4. I'm not trashing Haden. I think he's a really good corner who deserved to go in the first round. I'm trashing THE PICK. I didn't like it and I still don't. I don't think Haden can do so much more than Kyle Wilson to affect the bottom line that he's worthy of our #7 pick. That's it. Nothing against the kid himself.

5. Again, yes: If a corner is picked at #7, he needs to be epic. He really should start as a rookie and play well, then begin his run of 5 or 6 straight Pro Bowls. He should affect a huge improvement in the pass defense and the defense as a whole. Otherwise... why pick him at #7?

6. No, this is not a bad thread at all. It's actually a fantastic one, filled with smart points and counterpoints. What you mean to say is that you disagree with me. Equating that with me being stupid is self-aggrandizing on your part. People who disagree with you aren't necessarily stupid or even wrong.

My points are valid. You just don't like them.

[Shep]

BTW, I want Haden to start because if the Browns scouted him right... he should. Otherwise, he is NOT a Top 10 corner. I'd like to see Brown move to safety and be the QB of our defense.

[sisky fringo]

Originally Posted by Shep

To me, it raises the question of whether the Jets would have drafted Revis at 14 if they already had two quality starters at CB.

Admittedly, my favorite draft had us getting Nate Allen or Kareem Jackson at 38... and neither was there.

well let's say they would, because they did...who did they have? i guess i'm gonna have to not be lazy and look it up myself.

i have absolutely NO problem with having 3 great/elite corners. heck, i want 4 or 5! today's base offenses and defenses don't always reflect who's getting the most play time anyway as it varies game to game and opponent to opponent, skewing the importance of some players and leaving out many others that play key roles.

it's all a part of the smoke-screen anyway, disguising the defensive gameplan by way of a generic 3-4 base defense depth chart. Haden will have an important role to play regardless of whether he is dubbed "starter" on a press-issued 2 CB base 3-4 defense or not.

just because our base is the 3-4 doesn't mean that Mangini doesn't love the nickle, and Ryan and EM's desire to run exotic blitzes means Haden was a necessity sooner rather than later...and certainly not a luxury for 2010.

[Vegasdogg]

Originally Posted by Shep

and now I've read reports that it's highly possible that he won't start as a rookie

Are these the same reports that said Jake Delhomme looked good playing catch with Brian Robiskie. Highly possible to determine if your rookie CB isn't going to start based on 1 or 2 practices open to the media? In May? Really man, this is the basis of your doubt? And you can't see why that is premature? The problem is you're reading too much into the reports based on your thoughts about the pick. That is how you grossly exaggerate players - based on reports from the OBR, who have limited access to players this soon in camp.

Originally Posted by Shep

3. Haden was NOT a consensus top 10 pick by the time the draft rolled around. He had slid to the point that i'd guess his average slot at around 14.

He slid to 14? In which mocks did he slide? He was as sure a top 10 pick as anyone else on the top 10 not name McCoy, Suh or Bradford. Don't rewrite history.

It is fine that you don't like the pick. Just don't start making up information, or better yet how about you not exaggerate the reports you read. Kind of strange that such a fan of football can make a premature judgement of a player not 1 week into practice in shorts and helmets.

It's MINI-CAMP in MAY, dude.

But as I said if he were a third WR taken in @ #7 you'd start multiple threads about how 3rd WR's are need nowadays and he doesn't really have to start.

[Shep]

Well, I'll top that: I'd like to have the top five corners in the NFL on my team, all at the same time.

It's just not do-able. There's a cap. Every dollar spent on corners is a dollar not spent on pass rushers, quarterbacks, wide receivers, running backs, linebackers, etc.

I'd like to have 10 first round picks every year, too. I wish you could build up specific areas in a vacuum, with no concern for the other parts of the team. But you can't.

[Shep]

We dragged mocks in here all the time... and Haden had slid. Nobody had the Browns taking him anymore. Quit checking down to the notion that I'm lying or whatever. I'm not. I'm not just the smartest guy you've never met, but also the most noble, honest, and chivalrous. And I have a 40" vert and a massive phallus.

I'm not judging the kid. I'm judging the pick. And I'm saying if you DO draft a corner in the top 10, part of the reason you took that kid better be that he's so fucking awesome compared to the other top corners in that draft (and the ones before and after it) that he'll be one of the best in the league pretty fast.

AND, relative to those other corners drafted in the past few years, he'll be awesome as a rookie, too. He'll pay immediate dividends.

If those things aren't true, you don't pick him. If he needs a lot of development time, pick someone else later. My opinion.

Originally Posted by Vegasdogg

Are these the same reports that said Jake Delhomme looked good playing catch with Brian Robiskie. Highly possible to determine if your rookie CB isn't going to start based on 1 or 2 practices open to the media? In May? Really man, this is the basis of your doubt? And you can't see why that is premature? The problem is you're reading too much into the reports based on your thoughts about the pick. That is how you grossly exaggerate players - based on reports from the OBR, who have limited access to players this soon in camp.

He slid to 14? In which mocks did he slide? He was as sure a top 10 pick as anyone else on the top 10 not name McCoy, Suh or Bradford. Don't rewrite history.

It is fine that you don't like the pick. Just don't start making up information, or better yet how about you not exaggerate the reports you read. Kind of strange that such a fan of football can make a premature judgement of a player not 1 week into practice in shorts and helmets.

It's MINI-CAMP in MAY, dude.

But as I said if he were a third WR taken in @ #7 you'd start multiple threads about how 3rd WR's are need nowadays and he doesn't really have to start.

[sisky fringo]

Originally Posted by Shep

5. Again, yes: If a corner is picked at #7, he needs to be epic. He really should start as a rookie and play well, then begin his run of 5 or 6 straight Pro Bowls. He should affect a huge improvement in the pass defense and the defense as a whole. Otherwise... why pick him at #7?

He really should start as a rookie and play well

i disagree, but only because we are talking specifically about EM, CB, and defense.


if Mangini started openly using the nickle for his base defense, so 3 CB's are essentially "starting", the only difference it makes is on paper. whether Haden "starts" or not is all in our heads imo. that's important is that he should "contribute heavily and play well."
if the guy is playing the majority of the game and heavily contributing he's as good as a starter whether the depth chart says it or not.

they got him, they're seasoning him now, they're laying the pieces for the future. he's the guy they wanted...can't really argue about that.

[sisky fringo]

Originally Posted by Shep

Well, I'll top that: I'd like to have the top five corners in the NFL on my team, all at the same time.

It's just not do-able. There's a cap. Every dollar spent on corners is a dollar not spent on pass rushers, quarterbacks, wide receivers, running backs, linebackers, etc.

I'd like to have 10 first round picks every year, too. I wish you could build up specific areas in a vacuum, with no concern for the other parts of the team. But you can't.

we're capless.
let's get it done now!

(and if they're home grown and not me-first divas there's no reason why a team couldn't sustain 3 top flight corners on their budget...unless your initials are PS.)

[Alo]

For what it's worth, the folks at ProFootballFocus had Revis rated as the 35th best corner in the league in '07. People who follow the Jets closely talk about the big jump he made between his first and second years.

And as Sobo said in response to Shep's rant over at the OBR, there are plenty of corners who were picked before Revis and aren't as good as him but still were good picks because they're good players.

[Shep]

Originally Posted by Alo

For what it's worth, the folks at ProFootballFocus had Revis rated as the 35th best corner in the league in '07. People who follow the Jets closely talk about the big jump he made between his first and second years.

And as Sobo said in response to Shep's rant over at the OBR, there are plenty of corners who were picked before Revis and aren't as good as him but still were good picks because they're good players.

Hey, you Judas... what happens in OBR stays in OBR. Besides, I haven't even read that yet.

But Revis did start and play his rookie year, put up numbers, and got experience.

I'm not sure what to say to the second part. What does that mean?

[mz.]

shep, I'm going to do my best to quell your fears here.

Haden will play this year, and play A LOT. My early guess says he starts alongside Wright, with Brown shifting to FS and Ward manning SS. It's my hope that he'll be great (or, at least very good) right away. At worst, he'll be a huge upgrade over Brandon McDonald.

Also, if you implicitly trust Holmgren et al. to make a wise QB decision, please trust them that they knew they weren't drafting a non-starter at #7, as well.