The ILBs

Shep · #1 (**permalink**) 05-24-2010

My man SOBO responded to a question about the linebackers, and said that he thinks the starters will be Roth, Jackson, Fujita, and Bowens/Gocong (maybe a switch on pass downs, or maybe Gocong holds it down).

He thought Barton was miscast as a physical run stuffer at the Buck next to Jackson, and that Bowens was a huge upgrade. That said, Bowens can't cover and Fujita is clearly quicker.

Ranking the ILBs, he put Jackson at a clear #1, saying he's a smart guy, a leader type, he's never out of position, and he flows to the ball well. He needs a bigger Buck next to him... and Barton was not that guy.

He had Bowens as the third best ILB, then Trusnick, Maiava, and Veikune. He doesn't seem to think Barton will be on the team.

That's exactly how I see the lineup playing out. I hope at the midpoint of the season, Roth and Jackson get their extensions.

EDIT: He thought the improved run defense was due as much to Rubin's discipline as to Bowens' strength.

Shep · #2 (**permalink**) 05-24-2010

With Rogers' anticipated suspension, we'll get to see more of Rubin at the nose. If he plays well those first 2-4 games, my guess is that Rogers comes in and plays DE, if he hasn't already been traded for Barry Cofield or somebody.

samoth · #3 (**permalink**) 05-24-2010

Sobo knows exactly as much as you or I right now - nothing. Don't stress the pre-training camp hype, when every wide receiver is the next Jerry Rice and our linebacking corps gets compared to the 2000 Ravens.

Shep · #4 (**permalink**) 05-24-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by samoth

Sobo knows exactly as much as you or I right now - nothing. Don't stress the pre-training camp hype, when every wide receiver is the next Jerry Rice and our linebacking corps gets compared to the 2000 Ravens.

Dude, I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what we do here... or what the OBR does. You're essentially recommending a total shutdown of all Browns conversation and a firing of all "experts," because everybody on earth knows exactly the same as everybody else.

Sobo spends a lot of time analyzing the Browns, about 10 times more than you or I do. He goes to camp. He watches film. He has some contacts within the organization, as does John Taylor. Of COURSE they know more than we do.

Yeesh. This "anti-expert" thing is getting wildly out of hand.

JewDago · #5 (**permalink**) 05-24-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by samoth

Sobo knows exactly as much as you or I right now - nothing. Don't stress the pre-training camp hype, when every wide receiver is the next Jerry Rice and our linebacking corps gets compared to the 2000 Ravens.

here's where i agree: no one knows what's going to happen, but where i disagree is that what we're talking about is who's going to play where, which seems to be in the air right now, not how much success the unit is going to have, which is completely impossible to predict.

i truly hope that gocong transitions well to 3-4 OLB and holds the edge in the run game and crushes QBs when he gets the chance, and i'm still pulling for veikune. fujita's an acceptable LB, but he's not the physical presence needed at SILB, while veikune has the physical tools to smash people inside and clear the path for other people to flow and make tackles.

ideally, i'd like to see roth, jackson, veikune and gocong with fujita backing up jackson and playing nickle LB with jackson, which will be a high-priority position since every team plays so much nickle.

there was also a recent report of fujita playing OLB, so that could be in the mix, as well, if it's not to simply get him working on his pass rushing so he can blitz from the inside.

samoth · #6 (**permalink**) 05-24-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shep

Dude, I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what we do here... or what the OBR does. You're essentially recommending a total shutdown of all Browns conversation and a firing of all "experts," because everybody on earth knows exactly the same as everybody else.

Sobo spends a lot of time analyzing the Browns, about 10 times more than you or I do. He goes to camp. He watches film. He has some contacts within the organization, as does John Taylor. Of COURSE they know more than we do.

Yeesh. This "anti-expert" thing is getting wildly out of hand.

It's not getting out of hand. Whenever one of these "experts" puts out a column you parrot their views exactly and have been doing it for years. Then if you don't agree with whatever it is the Browns do, you restate your opinion again...and again...and again...until finally everyone else stops bothering to reply. I can't remember how many times I read how much you loved Bryant...then Clausen...then Matthews...then whoever else, but without ever being happy with who we DID draft.

Shep · #7 (**permalink**) 05-24-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by samoth

It's not getting out of hand. Whenever one of these "experts" puts out a column you parrot their views exactly and have been doing it for years. Then if you don't agree with whatever it is the Browns do, you restate your opinion again...and again...and again...until finally everyone else stops bothering to reply. I can't remember how many times I read how much you loved Bryant...then Clausen...then Matthews...then whoever else, but without ever being happy with who we DID draft.

Uhm... is this just a flight-of-ideas rant based loosely on the theme of, "Things I don't like about Shep?" Who do you think was really interested in your feelings about me? Why did you feel compelled to drag them into this thread? Seriously. What. Is. Your. Point?

Even at that, I'm not really sure what you just said. This thread has nothing whatsoever to do with Bryant... or Clausen... or Matthews. Why do you bring them up in an article about inside linebackers? What are you hoping to accomplish here?

And help me understand: So I have some guys I read and like a lot, smart guys like Sobo... but that's... what? Bad? Wrong? Somehow connected to Clausen again?

Seriously... the theme of this thread is pretty clear. Discuss it... or skip it. It's so exhausting wasting time with your fucking lame-ass judgements on me and/or experts, etc. If you don't wanna discuss the topic... DON'T!

Do I drop into threads to express my opinion on you? NO! Why? BECAUSE IT ISN'T RELEVANT!!!!

Flugel · #8 (**permalink**) 05-24-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shep

My man SOBO responded to a question about the linebackers, and said that he thinks the starters will be Roth, Jackson, Fujita, and Bowens/Gocong (maybe a switch on pass downs, or maybe Gocong holds it down).

He thought Barton was miscast as a physical run stuffer at the Buck next to Jackson, and that Bowens was a huge upgrade. That said, Bowens can't cover and Fujita is clearly quicker.

Ranking the ILBs, he put Jackson at a clear #1, saying he's a smart guy, a leader type, he's never out of position, and he flows to the ball well. He needs a bigger Buck next to him... and Barton was not that guy.

He had Bowens as the third best ILB,

Not overly impressed with SOBO here.

First of all, ILBers don't COVER people - they drop to a hook zone and close on the football, not to be confused with latching onto a guy and following him OUT of the zone wherever he goes. OLBers are responsible for the flats so THAT is where footspeed matters a TON. You get Chris Johnson in your flats and you don't close while the corner behind you is matched up on a talented WR somewhere and it's "sayanara." You miss somebody in a hook zone and there's potential help on both sides of you and behind you. Bruschi isn't a speedster but he BEATS receivers to the football in his hook zone very consistently.

In 2009, our BEST ILB was easily Bowens in terms of WHERE he made most of his tackles WITHOUT Shaun Rogers occupying 2 blockers in front of him. Not sure opponents doubled Rubin very often, which in turn enhanced Rubin's effectiveness vrs the point of attack. However, it only further necessitated that Bowens play with better 1st step instinct than Jackson, which I thought he did. Bowens quietly had a GREAT 2nd half of the season. Our defense seemed like it got off the field faster and it helped our team win some time of possession battles in the 2nd half of the season. IMO, that's pretty significant. Rogers taking on 2 blockers never improved Jackson's game the way I thought it would; and alot of it comes from him not being as instinctive as he is fast.

Fujita being QUICKER meant he was an OLBer on his last team and maybe ILB isn't the best place to put him in a 3-4. ILB is a position that rewards the instinctive guys like Teddy Bruschi and Ray Lewis.

Shep, you keep insinuating Jackson is the superstar of our defense and I've NEVER seen it. I rarely see him stuffing the run behind the line of scrimmage or even AT the line of scrimmage. MOST of his tackles come from delayed recognition he has to compensate for in hustle/speed/pursuit to make tackles where we want our Safeties making tackles. He's easily blocked by RBs via the blitz (ie Ray Rice more than once) and when we played St Louis in 2007 - a lead back put Jackson on his fanny in our end zone on 2 different 1st quarter TDs the Rams scored. Just not my type of superstar ILB.

I can't say he sucks or he won't get better; BUT I don't think he's anything special like Mike Johnson or Pepper Johnson. I like ILBs that hit so hard they jar footballs loose and make that opponent afraid to enter their territory. I've never heard 1 well prepared opponent say they're worried about Jackson's ankle lassos in our secondary.
- Tom F.

Shep · #9 (**permalink**) 05-24-2010

We'll disagree on Jackson. I thought he was probably our best player in 2008... I think Grossi had him #1 or #2. Sobo's on board, too. But that's why they call it a horse race.

I think Sobo just meant "drop into coverage," which Jackson did quite a bit of in 2008. I saw him covering TEs several times, probably in some kind of blitz scenario.

I agree with you that it means less in the Buck position. You'd have to ask Sobo... he watches a ton of film and normally knows his shit.

Mangini said he gave DQJ a Pro Bowl vote in 2008, and thought he should've made it. He had like 195 tackles, which is sick. You really can't fake that.

I'm a fan. I admit it. Now BE POSITIVE ABOUT HIM!!

(Turnabout is fair play!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flugel

Not overly impressed with SOBO here.

First of all, ILBers don't COVER people - they drop to a hook zone and close on the football, not to be confused with latching onto a guy and following him OUT of the zone wherever he goes. OLBers are responsible for the flats so THAT is where footspeed matters a TON. You get Chris Johnson in your flats and you don't close while the corner behind you is matched up on a talented WR somewhere and it's "sayanara." You miss somebody in a hook zone and there's potential help on both sides of you and behind you. Bruschi isn't a speedster but he BEATS receivers to the football in his hook zone very consistently.

In 2009, our BEST ILB was easily Bowens in terms of WHERE he made most of his tackles WITHOUT Shaun Rogers occupying 2 blockers in front of him. Not sure opponents doubled Rubin very often, which in turn enhanced Rubin's effectiveness vrs the point of attack. However, it only further necessitated that Bowens play with better 1st step instinct than Jackson, which I thought he did. Bowens quietly had a GREAT 2nd half of the season. Our defense seemed like it got off the field faster and it helped our team win some time of possession battles in the 2nd half of the season. IMO, that's pretty significant. Rogers taking on 2 blockers never improved Jackson's game the way I thought it would; and alot of it comes from him not being as instinctive as he is fast.

Fujita being QUICKER meant he was an OLBer on his last team and maybe ILB isn't the best place to put him in a 3-4. ILB is a position that rewards the instinctive guys like Teddy Bruschi and Ray Lewis.

Shep, you keep insinuating Jackson is the superstar of our defense and I've NEVER seen it. I rarely see him stuffing the run behind the line of scrimmage or even AT the line of scrimmage. MOST of his tackles come from delayed recognition he has to compensate for in hustle/speed/pursuit to make tackles where we want our Safeties making tackles. He's easily blocked by RBs via the blitz (ie Ray Rice more than once) and when we played St Louis in 2007 - a lead back put Jackson on his fanny in our end zone on 2 different 1st quarter TDs the Rams scored. Just not my type of superstar ILB.

I can't say he sucks or he won't get better; BUT I don't think he's anything special like Mike Johnson or Pepper Johnson. I like ILBs that hit so hard they jar footballs loose and make that opponent afraid to enter their territory.
- Tom F.

BernietheKid · #10 (**permalink**) 05-24-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shep

We'll disagree on Jackson. I thought he was probably our best player in 2008... I think Grossi had him #1 or #2. Sobo's on board, too. But that's why they call it a horse race.

I think Sobo just meant "drop into coverage," which Jackson did quite a bit of in 2008. I saw him covering TEs several times, probably in some kind of blitz scenario.

I agree with you that it means less in the Buck position. You'd have to ask Sobo... he watches a ton of film and normally knows his shit.

Mangini said he gave DQJ a Pro Bowl vote in 2008, and thought he should've made it. He had like 195 tackles, which is sick. You really can't fake that.

I'm a fan. I admit it. Now BE POSITIVE ABOUT HIM!!

(Turnabout is fair play!)

DQ had 154 tackles in 2008. He had 95 solo and 59 assisted per NFL.com

D'Qwell Jackson