The Pickle's first game

[Tobalaz]

Originally Posted by Shep

The point isn't whether Joe Thomas is a great player, because he undeniably is. But he's part of a bigger picture scenario that has added up to failure.

That is just so wrong and possibly the most ignorant statement made in the history of this forum.
Joe Thomas has NOTHING to do with this team losing.
Bad drafting for ten straight years has everything to do with that.
I'm going to exclude this past draft since it's currently under new management, just to show what they've been left to work with.
We've only hit on 2 of 11 first round picks since we've come back.
2 of 11!
Tim Couch (no line, no weapons, beat to death)
Courtney Brown (couldn't stay healthy)
Gerrard Warren (big payday, cashed out)
Willie Green (drugs)
Jeff Faine (good elsewhere but undersized for our division)
Kellen Winslow (blew out his knees in an act of stupidity)
Braylon Edwards (inconsistant as hell, no motivation, wanted out)
Kam Wimbley (tweener that didn't really fir the schemes he was asked to play)
Joe Thomas (home run! best LT in the league)
Brady Quinn (the whole DA/Quinn debacle shot his chance here)
Alex Mack (fixed the center problem we'd been having since we got back, home run #2)
That's an 82% failure rate of draft picks.
Let me just say that again so it can sink in.
82% failure rate on first round picks.
A first round pick is supposed to be a great player and cornerstone for your team for years to come. A second round pick is supposed to solid starter, what about those?
Kevin Johnson (good hands, couldn't find a 1st down marker to save his life)
Rahim Abdullah (couldn't tackle at the los OR 15 yards up field)
Dennis Northcutt (need I say more?)
Quincy Morgan (see previous statement)
Andre Davis (inconsistent wr, decent returner)
Chaun Thompson (an athlete, great special teamer)
Sean Jones (injuries)
Brodney Pool (injuries)
D'Qwell Jackson (injuries)
Eric Wright (solid corner)
Brian Robiskie (can't find separation if it was in neon lights)
Mohamed Massaquoi (lacks concentration, inconsistant)
David Veikune (a reach to begin with)
13 second round picks, 9 clear busts and Jackson is always injured (bet he won't get resigned after 2 straight seasons on the irl), Robo shouldn't be seeing the field, so let's be generous and just call 10 of those 13 busts, jury is still out on the rest. That's still a 77% bust rate. You've GOT to do better second round picks.
I'm afraid if I go on to the 3rd round it not only starts to go downhill from here, but my post would turn into a history of failure type novel.

[ProphetKing]

1 draft pick =/= future of the entire franchise

[King of Kings]

Originally Posted by Shep

The reason you need to bow out is that you're so wrong.

Yeah loudmouth? Post up some proof your opinion is factual then. I've posted up facts for over a week on my position. Funny how it's so wrong history shows it's correct, aye? Actually i'm bowing out because it's utterly pointless to debate with you. You ignore facts, go quiet for awhile then pop up parroting the same bullshit you found on ESPN some more as if merely repeating yourself a million times will somehow some way make it true. Newsflash: It won't.

I'm also bowing out because you're boring Shep. Your attempts at a quarterback circlejerk are as exciting as watching paint dry. The paint just might be a bit more exciting, though.

Originally Posted by Shep

I think you're trying to be controversial or go against the tide, but suggesting that QB and WR aren't the weakest parts of this team is just coming off as funny.

I'm calling things as they are, not as you want them to be. Sorry? Not really, but well.

Originally Posted by Shep

The OL is a great blend of young guys (Thomas, Mack, Lauvao) and veterans (Steinbach, Womack, Pashos). It's obviously working really well. It's fool's journey to dispute that. The line is very good.

Broken record alert. I've pointed out the issues with it. I'm NOT repeating myself, no matter how many times you attempt to diss me.

Originally Posted by Shep

You're right: We're into repeating ourselves. But you're a mess on this one.

You're being quite douchy, Jr.

Originally Posted by Shep

I would seriously delete this post before anybody else sees it.

Yet you're always the innocent little victim, how cute.

My PM box says I probably shouldn't. It does however show that judging by the amount of support my absolute destruction of your fantasies the last two weeks has brought? You should probably delete most all of your posts. You know, before someone sees them and the credibility you've long lost is forever gone. Come on man, try and have a little self respect. You're turning into an even bigger joke around here.

Originally Posted by Shep

"The least important side of the football?" Uhhhh... okay?

Defense wins championships. Eventually you'll put your dick and the Aaron Rodgers autographed 8x10 away and face up to the reality of football. Maybe not but I truly believe in you Shep, I believe one day you will face the cold hard reality of the situation and, well, actually learn something about the game of football.

And now I've said nothing matters but QBs and WRs? Geez, easier to debate someone when you just hand them their idiotic opinion, huh?

Originally Posted by Shep

You're just getting frustrated and angry because you took an indefensible position.

Then instead of taking shots at me at least TRY to debate everything i've schooled you with this week. PLEASE Shep, debate it. I've already defended it. You ran like a whipped puppy. I defended it some more. You ran. Stop running and debate the fucking argument then. Goddamn it's not hard. Debate it then, stop with trying to take digs at me so you can go bawling to the mods i'm being a meanie when I respond. Or just shut the fuck up for once, pay attention to what people are saying and learn something about the game for once.

[King of Kings]

Originally Posted by ProphetKing

1 draft pick =/= future of the entire franchise

Only if it's a quarterback.

[Vegasdogg]

I guess the only way to put this is:

Think Pats without Brady, Packers without Rodgers, Saints without Brees, Colts without Manning.

Can the Steelers win a SB without Ben, or the Ravens without Flacco, or the Jets without Sanchize? Probably.

But not long term. A defense can carry a team with a strong running game. We've seen this - just not every year. Eventually the Jets HAD to get *Sanchez, Ravens HAD to get Flacco, and Steelers HAD to get Ben. Because eventually you have to get the guy. When is always a debate.

Sooner or later I guess I had to join the darkside.




(*I may have been wrong about Sanchez. We'll see if he keeps this up - long season.)

[Shep]

Originally Posted by ProphetKing

1 draft pick =/= future of the entire franchise

Exactly.

I think it might be impossible for me to make this point here. Just gets to broad and hyperbolic.

Whatever the Browns have done has failed. If you did one of those "redo" drafts of the past three years, it might not include Thomas. Might be Peterson. You'd just look at the whole chessboard differently because the way it was played the first time came out like dog shit.

[Shep]

Originally Posted by Vegasdogg

I guess the only way to put this is:

Think Pats without Brady, Packers without Rodgers, Saints without Brees, Colts without Manning.

Can the Steelers win a SB without Ben, or the Ravens without Flacco, or the Jets without Sanchize? Probably.

But not long term. A defense can carry a team with a strong running game. We've seen this - just not every year. Eventually the Jets HAD to get *Sanchez, Ravens HAD to get Flacco, and Steelers HAD to get Ben. Because eventually you have to get the guy. When is always a debate.

Sooner or later I guess I had to join the darkside.




(*I may have been wrong about Sanchez. We'll see if he keeps this up - long season.)

So true. And look at the Steelers WITH Ben and how much better and more consistent they've been. The Ravens haven't missed the playoffs with Flacco after being a yo-yo since the strange Super Bowl year (that really hasn't been replicated by anybody).

For the Jets to matter in the playoffs, they had to have much better QB play... and they got it. Just like the Giants the year they won it all.

I may be wrong, but weren't the Ravens a Wild Card team that year? Like the Giants were when they won the Super Bowl? Like the Jets were last year? All teams that played amazing defense and ran the ball among the best... but they couldn't get homefield advantage without the QB. Same for the pre-Favre Vikings.

It's tough winning over time, even over the span of a 16-game season, without great quarterback play, even when you have a crazy-ass aligning of stars, a Top Five running game and a Too 5 running team, like the ones named above.

[Shep]

Originally Posted by King of Kings

Only if it's a quarterback.

If you said that to 32 GMs? About 27 would agree.

[Tobalaz]

Hey, I wanted Bryant McKinney in 2002 when we took Willie Green.
McKinney has been a rock at LT for the Vikings since and been part of one of the best olines i the NFL year after year. We still make the Thomas pick, move McKinney to RT and we've got an elite oline which is perfect for any rookie qb we bring in.

We can ALL point back and say "Woulda coulda shoulda" as much as we want, it doesn't chance the now of things.
And NOW bad drafting year after year got us.
We have ONE good draft on a team with average at best talant across the board and we're all talking qb just like when we had NO talent across the board.
Big Mike said he wants to build the team the right way, and pointed to the Ravens, Steelers and Jest as models.
So I'm thinking we're giving McCoy one more year on the pine to learn, keep a journeyman qb, and stock some talent on the roster before we throw a kid to the flames.
Hell, even when Indy drafted Manning they already had an offensive line, running back and wide receivers in place from their previous failed 1st rounder, Jeff George, who was drafted and beat to hell with little talent around him..
Indy didn't keep drafting qbs, they brought i a journeyman qb (Harbaugh) for 4 seasons as they built their line, running game and wrs.
They decided to work on the defense AFTER drafting a qb, which the qb came after the rest of the offensive pieces were in place.
The Jets Kept former 1st rounder Pennington (weak arm) as they built up the oline, wrs, tes, and running game, and defense, then they switched to Favre for a season before drafting Sanchez.
The Steelers fielded a great defense and running game nearly every season as far back as I can remember starting journeymen qbs, making sure the team itself was ready before Big Jen came around and their first Super Bowl with him as a starting qb they won in spite of him, not because of him.
The Ravens built up their team defense and oline first, then the running game, then inserted the qb last. They even won a Super Bowl without a decent qb (Dillweed), drafted a 1st round qb (Boller) who was god awful and kept the team out of the playoffs, brought in journeyman qb McNair, then waited for the right time to take another 1st round qb Flacco who was the right guy for them. Now with the addition of an elite receiver (Boldin) they're lethal.

[damajuki]

Fantastic post, Tobes. Just great stuff and great perspective on how those QBs got there.

It's all about building the roster as much as possible while searching for THE GUY at QB.

As you pointed out, even Baltimore and Indy tried and failed at getting their QB before trying again and hitting. You just have to get better at hitting on other picks so your team/organization can SURVIVE missing on the 1st round QBs.

We aren't in that position yet. We need some more depth, ideally, before going after our QB.

That said, I'm officially in love with Luck now after watching him the last two weeks, so if he's available, I'm all in for this guy. He seems strong and smart enough to survive the rough spots.

But outside that kind of "right" guy, I'd try to avoid a QB in 2011 if we could. I'm just afraid we won't have that luxury.

[Tobalaz]

Out of all the young guys I've seen to this point, Luck has caught my eye.
If he stays for one more season before declaring it's a good thing for him, and since I'd love to have him, it'd be one more year we'd have to draft some more talent to help him out if we could get him.

When you take a qb out of need, you get the Harringtons, Leafs and Bollers.
When you take the guy that's right for you (with the proper staff in place) you get the Mannings, Flaccos and Breeses.

I don't want to keep drafting Couches and Quinns, I want a Flacco of our own.