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Thread: Shanahan's 32 Points and The Browns Dysfunciton

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    Exclamation Shanahan's 32 Points and The Browns Dysfunciton

    Well, to start with...it may or may not be 32 distinct points. The quotes state that it was a 32 page powerpoint presentation...and several pages may have been dedicated to one point. But be that as it may, let's go with it as stated. 32 points.

    What we don't know...and never will likely know...is what all 32 of the slides contained.

    However, we do know this much:

    1. Shanahan claimed he did not have sufficient influence on his player selection.
    1A: To that point, he stated he wanted Charles Johnson on the roster (this just came out today).
    1B: To that point, he stated he wanted a veteran QB such as Matt Schaub

    Rebuttal: There is not one quote of Shanahan wanting Johnson until January 9th, 2015. He also, in full control of the offense, had Johnson buried on 3rd team all pre-season..and had a total of 6 catches for 65 yards. Sure doesn't sound like a Shanny favorite. As for the veteran QB...as the Browns were going to draft a QB regardless, and you don't get a veteran QB to pay and stash away as your third QB...that would mean that Shanny did not want Hoyer. The only logical conclusion is that Shanny wanted 'his guy' to be the veteran QB and then trade/cut Hoyer. That puts an interesting spin on how the season worked out.

    2. Shanahan claimed there were texts from FO staff about personnel and play calls.

    Rebuttal: First off, this is classless to cause an investigation just because you want out of town. Talk about being a 'me first' person. Second, my guess is that texts are as common as doctoring footballs by QB's. Everyone does it...but it doesn't get talked about...especially in the media. Third, the fact that someone questioning calls or personnel bothered him enough that he wants out just confirms that the piece by LaCanfora written last year as he left Washington was accurate (not the hack job version LC did on the Browns). Shanny is obviously very prickly, and does not like to be questioned or secon guessed. Problem is, while 'in game' questions may not be permissable by league rules, it most definitely IS within the GM's arena to question personnel usage. It is by understanding this usage that he can determine if a player is a keeper or he should cut bait. It is also the GM and the HC that must determine if the OC is utilizing the players to their best vantage...and if not, get rid of said OC. Again, the method and timing were wrong...but it is a valid part of the FO to monitor and question when something isn't working.

    Other issues with Shanahan:

    QB Coach Dowell Loggains - He was going to be fired anyway for his text comments on Manziel...but he was also not a Shanahan hire. In fact he was brought in before Shanahan was even interviewed. Wonder if that played a role...as Loggains was definitley pro-Manziel...and Shanny was always a little less positive in his comments. Oh, and to the point of the draft conversation, I went back and looked and found this very intersting how it got all twisted:

    “You go through this whole process. I think I worked out 14 quarterbacks, went to their schools, ate dinner with them, spent time in the classroom with them, brought them to Cleveland. Once we finished all our evaluations, it was Johnny’s name at the top of the list and then there was everyone else. I knew we needed a quarterback and we were very high on Johnny.

    “I knew there was a good chance if he was there at some point we were going to take him or even move up to go get him.”

    Loggains confirmed rumors the Browns tried to move up to get Manziel even before the trade with the Eagles.

    “Mr. Haslam and Coach (Mike) Pettine had called me down to the draft room a couple times throughout the night and we had almost made trades with Tennessee (No. 11) and Dallas (No. 16) and backed out,” he said. “We were sitting there and Coach Pettine keeps texting me, and we’re going back and forth and we’re going, ‘Hey, does Dallas take him here? No, they won’t. Does St. Louis take him at 13?’

    “We knew we had to get in front of the Chiefs (at No. 23) because we knew they would draft him.”

    Loggains said he and Shanahan played a significant role in the process. Loggains was called into the draft room from his office whenever taking a quarterback was possible.

    “It’s not a cone of secrecy whatsoever,” he said. “We were very involved, which is always good for a coaching staff when you get to choose your own quarterback.”
    Wow...even in the article that said Haslam was involved...it sure sounds like the coaches were all in.

    WR Coach Mike McDaniel - Mike was handpicked by Shanahan...and had followed him from Houston to Washington. Funny thing here. He was on the plane with Gordon to Las Vegas...the very same trip that ended with Gordon suspended for a year. This was a private plane...so there is no way he didn't know Gordon was drinking. The Browns say he was let go because he was connected with Shanny...but come on, 6 days after Gordon gets nabbed getting off the plane and McDaniel gets chopped...while all other offensive coaches stay, including offensive quality control coach Richard Hightower...who by the way is still with the Browns. Enough said.





    Now on to the 'dysfunction' stories:
    1. Kyel Shanahan leaving - see above
    2. Josh Gordon - are Adrian Peterson, Ray Rice, Justin Blackmon, or any of the other drug or behavior suspensions being touted as 'Organizational Dysfunction'? The answer is no.
    3. West/Gilbert - are any other draft picks with limited success being touted as 'Organizational Dysfunction'? Again, no. Missing on a pick is just that...and we still don't know if we missed with these kids. They may turn out as very good picks that took a little time to grow up. Think Dez Bryant in Dallas....tons of issues, but turned into a pro-bowl player.
    4. Manziel rehab - Again...this is not a dysfunction of the Organization. They did their best to control the media and the message all year...and now Manziel is getting the treatment he (and others) believe he needs. If anything, his going to rehab should be seen as a positive.
    5. Textgate - this is no more important than Soundgate (or whatever they call Atlanta's issue) and Deflategate. Both of those have a high potential to give a competitional advantage...and unless Farmer was somehow communicating plays or personnel matchups (which, then why would Shanny be upset???)...textgate does not. It was just stupid to do...and may not have been realized that if it did not pertain to those issues it was against the rules. I mean, what is the advantage of "WTF was THAT play?" or "FGS, get Hoyer out and give Manziel a shot!". If that is what the texts were, dysfunction is a pretty harsh word for it.

    Finally, Haslam. Is he really that quick of a trigger?

    Chudzinski firing: this is laid at Haslam's feet, but it in fact was Banner -
    For the sixth straight season, the Browns lost at least 11 games. As the year went on, Banner thought coach Rob Chudzinski got promoted one time too many and was overmatched as a head coach.
    ....so in reality, Haslam was doing what an owner should do...listen to his football guys...Banner and Lombardi

    Banner/Lombardi firing: a bold and smart move. Banner was in over his head...and Lombardi, well, need I say anything?
    Bill Belichick and Urban Meyer were strong in recommendations for fired Tampa Bay coach Greg Schiano—Belichick called twice—and here’s where I hear there was a major rift in the organization. Banner wanted nothing to do with Schiano. Haslam was intrigued with him after the over-the-top recommendation from Belichick. The group flew to Tampa to interview Schiano, and one source said Banner was cold to Schiano, not participating much in the interview.
    ....in other words, Banner was unprofessional

    Tom Heckert firing: again, this was a Banner firing.

    The original staff before Banner were fired by Haslam...and that is normal operating procedure for an incoming new owner. Banner/Lombardi were fired by Haslam...but Banner showed incompetance and Lombardi, like I said, what do you need to say?

    Too much is being made of too little. The Browns may not be perfect (HA!), but they are far from as dysfunctional as revisionist history dictates.
    Last edited by DawgFan; 02-10-2015 at 04:18 PM.
    Football is all about synergy. Replace a poor player with a great player and watch the surrounding players suddenly seem vastly improved. When you aren't covering for someone else, you can do YOUR JOB better.



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    It's a total mess. In business, when builidng an organization, most good companies hire the lead manager first and let them take the lead in hiring the others, with some oversight. There is always great resentment when the new manager takes the job and then discovers he has to deal with a jerk he didn't hire but has to manage and has some impact on his success.

    My perspective is that Haslam is a bad leader, a typical sports owner ego-maniac. Like Manziel, he has had life handed to him on a silver platter and hasn't earned it. Just look at his own company and the mess he created. Haslam made a big show talking to the Steelers, Patriots et al, but clearly wasn't listening to anybody. That's a clear mark of a BAD leader. But I will also tell you -- for fair disclosure and related or unrelated -- that a good friend of mine whose opinon I respect saw Haslam speak two years ago and said he was the best motivational speaker he ever heard. Go figure.

    At the same time, Shanahan is a whiner. He whined in Washington, Cleveland and likely will at his next stop.

    What I often see with the military is what I see in a macho sport like football -- a lot of these guys lack good people management skills and stumble over themselves, create chaos, and shit over everything as a result. The Browns organization should bring in a top notch management and communication consultant who helps these guys learn and practice blue chip company management methods.

    Beyond that, it's clear to me that Ray Farmer and his organization don't understand how to conduct due diligence and properly evalaute and select talent. That's another area that needs to be addressed. Just watching NFL Network and the story of how the Giants prepare for the draft and evaluate talent and put a lot of effort into finding guys with good character is a lesson in itself for the Browns.
    Last edited by AttackOffense; 02-10-2015 at 05:37 PM.

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    Browns are starting to build a team. Doing good in cap and draft. We aren't doing great,but definitely better than ever before.

    We take...
    Aaron Donald solid de in 3-4 after trade down get 19pick this year.
    Take manziel at 26idk that I'd do that now...
    Bitonio great pick
    Jeremy hill

    we need wr and te now.
    That draft would helped us alot. We coulda kept 5th and 3rd from snot trading up for Gilbert n manziel. I'm not fan of trading up.
    I wanted Shane skov lb in *late round or UDFA. Made team at UDFA.

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    I think it's peachy they he made him jump through hoola-hoops to get out of town. Normally the crazies just run people out. And, why 32 points? If a guy's not into it, punt his a$$. On the flip side, though, Shanny probably used his last get out of jail free card. His days could be numbered, especially after not being able to recoup from the Mack loss.

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    If shanahan cant average 30 n Atlanta he will probably not be in nfl any longer. Matty ice. Julio n roddy, Matthews on line... Got alot to work with.

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    If I read once more that Manziel was an organizational pick it'll be the 1000th time from about 150 sources. Yet some still insist it was all Haslam and we really wanted (NAME HERE). If you're even a hack detective, you have to conclude at some point that the Browns really did like and want Manziel... like, pretty much everybody in the organization.

    Hey, a lot of people liked/like him. We know Dallas seriously considered him, the Vikings tried to trade up, and the Chiefs would've taken him at 23. He was a first round QB for sure. Still is. I think he was handled miserably and then handled himself miserably. We could debate the chicken/egg thing (!).

    Shepsclamation!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shep View Post
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    If I read once more that Manziel was an organizational pick it'll be the 1000th time from about 150 sources. Yet some still insist it was all Haslam and we really wanted (NAME HERE). Shepsclamation!!
    Shep...have to disagree here. The past six years (and much more) have been about accountability, taking care of your organization (if applicable), and thinking of the little man out there who's struggling. Haslam was neck deep in a FBI sting op, a massive stadium reconstruction plan, and a new staff/coaching regime. That's a lot for even the best guys out there. Manziel helped build-up A&M ($), he deflected the attention away from Jimmy, and JF was the ultimate pick for an oil & gas executive. The bum comment of "draft Manziel" was just a way for Jimmy to fit in with the times. And, lastly, the initial reports stated the team would rely heavily on Shanny to make offensive decisions. Shanny wanted Savage and a Veteran QB.

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    Funny, the Loggains interview....the one with the text comment...stated that he and Shanny were VERY involved in choosing Manziel...and in fact were consulted each time a QB was possibly the choice on the card...and that Manziel was almost drafted from 12 on.
    Football is all about synergy. Replace a poor player with a great player and watch the surrounding players suddenly seem vastly improved. When you aren't covering for someone else, you can do YOUR JOB better.



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    Quote Originally Posted by DawgFan View Post
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    Funny, the Loggains interview....the one with the text comment...stated that he and Shanny were VERY involved in choosing Manziel...and in fact were consulted each time a QB was possibly the choice on the card...and that Manziel was almost drafted from 12 on.
    And Ray Farmer, from what I recall, said that Loggains is all wet.

    When it comes to the Browns, don't believe any of these clowns!

    As for Haslam's involvement, if it looks like rat droppings, its usually rat droppings. Haslam exerted some degree of influence in that decision.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackOffense View Post
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    And Ray Farmer, from what I recall, said that Loggains is all wet.

    When it comes to the Browns, don't believe any of these clowns!

    As for Haslam's involvement, if it looks like rat droppings, its usually rat droppings. Haslam exerted some degree of influence in that decision.
    Actually, and again I am being obstinant, Farmer said Loggains was 'not in the room when the decision was made'. That is not 'he was never in there', nor is it 'he had no input'. Besides, he didn't say SHANNY was not in the room.

    I am also not saying Haslam had no role in the choice...and his preference may even have influenced the decision to a degree. However, for me to believe he said 'take him' when everyone 'hated him'...that is too far a stretch for me to take.
    Football is all about synergy. Replace a poor player with a great player and watch the surrounding players suddenly seem vastly improved. When you aren't covering for someone else, you can do YOUR JOB better.



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    Quote Originally Posted by DawgFan View Post
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    Actually, and again I am being obstinant, Farmer said Loggains was 'not in the room when the decision was made'. That is not 'he was never in there', nor is it 'he had no input'. Besides, he didn't say SHANNY was not in the room.

    I am also not saying Haslam had no role in the choice...and his preference may even have influenced the decision to a degree. However, for me to believe he said 'take him' when everyone 'hated him'...that is too far a stretch for me to take.
    I think Loggains is a whack job loose cannon who I would never hire. I wouldn't believe a damn thing he said! I think Loggains was part of the problem with our QBs last year. I think the new QB coach will be better.
    Last edited by AttackOffense; 02-11-2015 at 05:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackOffense View Post
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    I think Loggains is a whack job loose cannon who I would never hire. I wouldn't believe a damn thing he said! I think Loggains was part of the problem with our QBs last year. I think the new QB coach will be better.
    I'm totally with you on that one.
    Football is all about synergy. Replace a poor player with a great player and watch the surrounding players suddenly seem vastly improved. When you aren't covering for someone else, you can do YOUR JOB better.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Shep View Post
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    ...the Browns really did like and want Manziel... like, pretty much everybody in the organization...
    #MotionSeconded

    This....



    http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:10905353
    Last edited by OconRecon; 02-11-2015 at 09:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackOffense View Post
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    I think Loggains is a whack job loose cannon who I would never hire. I wouldn't believe a damn thing he said! I think Loggains was part of the problem with our QBs last year. I think the new QB coach will be better.
    I would be encouraged if I actually had a reason to believe that other than wishful thinking. If I was convinced that the Browns would put Manziel in a position to succeed and leave him there long enough (at least as long as they gave Hoyer last year) to prove or disprove his fitness to be our quarterback, I might have some confidence for the future.

    Talk of bringing in Sanchez leaves me cold.
    "A pessimist is one who says: 'Things can't get worse.' And an optimist is one who says, 'Yes they can.'" Alan Dershowitz

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    Quote Originally Posted by DawgsDefense View Post
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    Browns are starting to build a team. Doing good in cap and draft. We aren't doing great,but definitely better than ever before.

    We take...
    Aaron Donald solid de in 3-4 after trade down get 19pick this year.
    Take manziel at 26idk that I'd do that now...
    Bitonio great pick
    Jeremy hill

    we need wr and te now.
    That draft would helped us alot. We coulda kept 5th and 3rd from snot trading up for Gilbert n manziel. I'm not fan of trading up.
    I wanted Shane skov lb in *late round or UDFA. Made team at UDFA.
    Browns have SO many things to accomplish this off-season -- desperate need of a QB, TE, WR and NT -- and that is why it was so disheartening to read in the PD yesterday that Haslam says the Browns won'tbe as aggressive in free agency than they were last year.

    I find that stunning and the same defeatist attitude we have seen with some Browns teams inthe past and we normally see with the Indians. I feel sorry for Browns fans who expect a better effort to build agood team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldDawgCliff View Post
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    I would be encouraged if I actually had a reason to believe that other than wishful thinking. If I was convinced that the Browns would put Manziel in a position to succeed and leave him there long enough (at least as long as they gave Hoyer last year) to prove or disprove his fitness to be our quarterback, I might have some confidence for the future.

    Talk of bringing in Sanchez leaves me cold.
    Haslam repeated in the PD article yesterday that Logggains had no idea what he was talking about. That guy was a really bad hire by the Browns.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackOffense View Post
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    Haslam repeated in the PD article yesterday that Logggains had no idea what he was talking about. That guy was a really bad hire by the Browns.
    If that is true, why did they keep him around for a year. Not saying he was great, but if he was that bad, how incompetent was Haslam, Farmer and Pettine in allowing him to even be seen with Manziel--much less be his primary coach?
    "A pessimist is one who says: 'Things can't get worse.' And an optimist is one who says, 'Yes they can.'" Alan Dershowitz

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldDawgCliff View Post
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    If that is true, why did they keep him around for a year. Not saying he was great, but if he was that bad, how incompetent was Haslam, Farmer and Pettine in allowing him to even be seen with Manziel--much less be his primary coach?
    Ha, that's easy...his OC was covering for him.
    Football is all about synergy. Replace a poor player with a great player and watch the surrounding players suddenly seem vastly improved. When you aren't covering for someone else, you can do YOUR JOB better.



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    The only dysfynction I see here was Shanahan period. He leaked text gate and now Lacanfora is piling on. (That writer blows) oh and then there's JF and Gordon. 3 guys don't make the Browns a dysfunctional team.
    Cleveland Browns SuperBowl Era. I said it

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldDawgCliff View Post
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    If that is true, why did they keep him around for a year. Not saying he was great, but if he was that bad, how incompetent was Haslam, Farmer and Pettine in allowing him to even be seen with Manziel--much less be his primary coach?
    Same can be said for Farmer, who ight be the worst GM in pro football. Haslam is incompetent and clueless and has no idea what a good football management person or coach is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackOffense View Post
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    Same can be said for Farmer, who ight be the worst GM in pro football. Haslam is incompetent and clueless and has no idea what a good football management person or coach is.
    Meds...AO...take the MEDS!!!

    Farmer got very good FA's and had a good draft/UDFA period with very little time at the helm. Yes, Gilbert had some issues, but likely will clean them up...and if Manziel pans out with the FREE pick...well, the draft is pretty much epic.

    His only downfall is the textgate...and I am willing to bet it will not prove to have given an advantage (probably more Shanny WTF are you doing?) so the penalty will be lighter to reflect that.


    As for Haslam...his biggest mistake was taking the NFL's advice and getting Banner/Lombardi. They then tried to take advantage and do a power grab on the rookie owner. He responded.
    Football is all about synergy. Replace a poor player with a great player and watch the surrounding players suddenly seem vastly improved. When you aren't covering for someone else, you can do YOUR JOB better.



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    It's way to early to say how good or bad Farmer is doing. Don't overreact over one draft. I think his draft was ok...not great, but made some positive additions.
    "The quarterback question lingers, but the Browns traded and traded and traded and traded and traded and acquired nine players and three high draft choices.

    It's tough to argue those results." Pat McManamon 5-3-16

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    As to the 'dysfunciton', I think the Haslam interview had some very salient points:

    "We came back from there and I actually felt that since our family bought the Browns, it's the best week we've had,'' he said. "Very productive, clarification of roles, strategy, where we wanted to go, how we were going to get there. A great two or three days together and unfortunately some people who as far as I know have not been in this building, depicted a far different situation than certainly we feel every day when we come here and come to work.''
    Like I and others have stated...interesting how people who are NOT in the building are given more credence than the ones IN the building.

    "I was in a meeting Monday, the scouts and the coaches and I feel great about what we've assembled on both sides as well as how well they work together,'' said Haslam. "I think Ray and Mike work together extremely well. I also think it's important to remember that today is Feb. 11, obviously a year ago is when we made some pretty substantial changes (firing CEO Joe Banner and GM Mike Lombardi) and it takes a little bit of time to put things together. I think we did a reasonably good job the first year and I think we'll be a lot better the second year and better than that the third year."
    It does take time...and it was only a year ago. I got my job managing a department a year ago...and believe me, while I have done a lot, there is still a long way to go. Not everything can be changed overnight. In fact, that is one of the surest ways to screw it up worse. With that said, I think the most positive part of this sentence is that he mentions year three with this group. He didn't just stop at THIS YEAR...eh went on to year three. Sounds like he is set on having a long term plan (fingers crossed).

    "But here's how I see my role is set the goals for the organization, put the right people in the right place, provide them with the resources they need to do their job and then hold them accountable.''
    This entire quote is huge. It goes back to what he said day one. Unless you are calling him a bald face lier (and some may), he has said all along that while he will have input, he is NOT the expert and that the EXPERTS will have final say. I think this is where Banner/Lombardi ran into issues...they didn't even respect his input enough to listen to options. Listen...then tell him why another option is better...and MOST successful men will understand.

    Which leads to the Manziel draft question:

    "Let me say, I have never watched tape,'' he said. "That's not my skillset. I'm supposed to get the right people in the right place and I think in Ray Farmer we have the right person and (personnel executives) Bill Kuharich and Morocco Brown and all of the other scouts, I think we've got the right people in the right places, so Ray has all of those final calls.''
    Again, not saying he didn't have an opinion and didn't voice it...but doubt he overruled anyone...and as for the Jersey sails comments....HA!

    He disputed the notion that the business side clamored for the drafting of Manziel to drive merchandise sales.

    "That's crazy,'' Haslam said. "Alec can tell you this better than I can because he's so much better at the business side of football than I am, but everybody thinks he's going to sell a lot more jerseys. You put what you make on merchandise into a pool and divide it by 32. In the scheme of things in NFL dollars it's this big (holding his fingers and inch apart). It's not this big (hands a foot apart)."
    The NFL has COLLECTIVE REVENUE. The only way to increase your own revenue is to have a team that is successful and that is in the playoffs. A couple jerseys doesn't do squat.

    When asked about potential firings (basically implying he has a trigger finger)...

    "Listen, I encouraged Ray last year before his first draft to be aggressive in the draft, not be afraid to take chances, that we're in this for the long haul,'' he said. "I know that will get a lot of rolling of the eyes because of all the changes we've made and I accept that, but I think we've put together a really good team that can turn this franchise into a consistent winner - something that's not been - and I feel really good about the people we've put in place.''
    Again...going back the 'third year' comment...this leads me to believe this is a building process and there will be no firings unless somebody just plain implodes.

    About drafting Gilbert

    Haslam was asked about Farmer picking Gilbert instead of Giants receiver Odell Beckham, who went on to win NFL Rookie of the Year honors.

    "Organizationally we decided cornerback was a big need the way Mike likes to play defense, so we made the decision to pick Justin,'' he said. "I can assure you we do a tremendous amount of post-audit on our drafts because one of my responsibilities [is to] hold people accountable. Pretty soon, you go in our draft room, we'll have the last three or four drafts up there, and I think that's a reminder, good and bad, for how we've done. So we'll continue.''
    Again, you have a defensive HC...so likely you go defense first. As for QB search...

    On a mission to find a winning quarterback, he insisted he has the right people in the building to accomplish it.

    "Between our scouts and our coaches, we have the expertise to get a good quarterback, and we're going to work relentlessly until we get that person,'' he said. "And here again, I'm not saying that person's not on our roster. But we're going to continue to work and evaluate."
    As any team should. Heck, the Broncos are evaluating the value of sticking with Manning vs the value of seeing what they have in Ossweiler.


    at any rate, while he does not deny there are differences and even some heated interchanges...he says OVERALL they are on the same page and working together towards a consistent goal...and that is all you can ask for in a FO and ownership.

    Now, on the field...WIN SOME DAMN GAMES!
    Football is all about synergy. Replace a poor player with a great player and watch the surrounding players suddenly seem vastly improved. When you aren't covering for someone else, you can do YOUR JOB better.



  24. #24
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    I hope pettine gets his third year. He may have the team he wants and he can actually figure out how to be a headcoach. Players playing with same system and coaching for multiple years helps them figure out how to make plays.

    Manziel will get his year. Pettine gets a year after manziel if he don't workout. So,manziel and Hoyer won't be reason he fired. He will be given chance to fix it. If he can't we need someone who can.

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