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Thread: Looking at Player Effeciency Rating and some other things... A cross-team comparison.

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    Default Looking at Player Effeciency Rating and some other things... A cross-team comparison.

    Player Effeciency Rating, or PER, is defined by ESPN as such: PER: Player Efficiency Rating is the overall rating of a player's per-minute statistical production. The league average is 15.00 every season.

    From Wiki: PER strives to measure a player's per-minute performance, while adjusting for pace. A league-average PER is always 15.00, which permits comparisons of player performance across seasons.

    PER takes into account positive accomplishments, such as field goals, free throws, 3-pointers, assists, rebounds, blocks and steals, and negative ones, such as missed shots, turnovers and personal fouls. The formula adds positive stats and subtracts negative ones through a statistical point value system. The rating for each player is then adjusted to a per-minute basis so that, for example, substitutes can be compared with starters in playing time debates. It is also adjusted for the team's pace. In the end, one number sums up the players' statistical accomplishments for that season.


    Now here's Cleveland's best players by PER: LeBron (26.4), Kyrie (21.3), Love (19.5), Mozgod (19.3), TT (15.8). [To note, Varejao has a 17.8 but I didn't count him because he's injured.]

    To compare, here's the top PER ratings for my other favourites, Memphis and Toronto:
    Memphis: Gasol (22.3), Randolph (20.4), Conley (19.2), Beno Udrih (16.1), Nick Calathes (14.2)
    Toronto: Valanchiunas (20.5 - HAD NO IDEA it was this high), Lou Will (20.4), Lowry (19.5), James Johnson (My boy, 18.5), DeRozan (15.7)

    Now compared to the worst players for PER:
    Cavs: Mike Miller (14mpg, 4.3 PER), Delly (20mpg, 7.2PER), Shump (22mpg, 10.1PER)
    Memphis: Vince Carter (16mpg, 10.1PER), Jon Leuer (14mpg, 12.5 PER), Courtney Lee (31mpg, 12.9PER)
    Toronto: T Ross (25mpg, 11.2PER), Hansbrough (12mpg, 11.8PER), Vasquez (23mpg, 13.3PER)

    So... where am I going with this. Well the average is 15, so logically you'd want your starters at least playing at that level.

    The Cavs starters, only JR Smith is below this but not by much (14.4). The bench is a disaster with only James Jones managing a PER over 11. I consider Shump an outlier because he doesn't score many points and is primarily a perimeter defender and PER is a measurement of mostly offensive efficiency. John Hollinger (VP of the grizzlies and the grandfather of advanced analytics) said he freely admits that two of the defensive statistics it incorporatesóblocks and steals (which was not tracked as an official stat until 1973)ócan produce a distorted picture of a player's value and that PER is not a reliable measure of a player's defensive acumen. (from wiki) so Shumps lower PER is offset by his lack of offensive output.

    The Grizzlies starters, 3 average 20 or close to twenty PER, then you have Tony Allen at a 14, Lee and Jeff Green have similar PER at 12.9 and 13.1. The Grizz Bench has a solid 14-12 PER with the exception of Vince Carter and players who don't recieve significant minutes. I excluded less effecient players like Tayshaun Prince and Quincy Pondexter who they have since traded (and the team has played a lot better since the moves they made, as the PER would reflect). The Grizz roster IMO, is the deepest of the three and the overall PER scores also reflect this. Vince Carter has been a disappointment this season and the PER reflects his mediocre play. He has not been that great a defensive asset either which is why his minutes have been slipping to Allen, Green and Lee.

    The Raptors starters are all at least at 15. Both of their PF's Amir Johnson and Patrick Patterson have above 15 PER's at 15.5. Amir is a player I constantly underrate. He's younger than you think for a player who has a decade in the NBA at this point (one of the last to come right out of high school). With all that experience he never evolved in to a game changer but he has evolved in to a very well rounded power forward who does a lot of things well but nothing great. Their sixth man, Lou Will is a lightning rod. Their bench has three players at 11 PER but James Johnson plays at a very efficient level and can be inserted in the lineup as a starter or off the bench at the will of Coach Casey. However, like the Cavs, their bench isn't that great. They have some good role players. Vasquez is a good backup PG, but he's too inconsistent IMO.

    So where am I going with this?

    For the Cavs, obviously, LeBron is a huge huge x-factor, he has the 7th best PER in the NBA and Kyrie has a top 25 PER. Kyrie is the x-factor to me. Having not one, but two players on the court at once who can score at will is huge which is why the Cavaliers have had one of the best offensive efficiency ratings in the NBA. Defensively, we are so much better with the additions of Mozgov, JR and Shump but our bench is still lacking. It's a miracle that Blatt found trust in James Jones because other than him we pretty much have TT coming off the bench. That's the picture I'm trying to paint here. We are such a dynamic team but IMO, the deeper more complete teams will really test us in the playoffs and I am worried that our lack of talent on the bench will cost us this season. I like chatting basketball here, the reddit fans really like to have their blinders on. I don't blame them. LeBron is back, and this season has been a blast but I think some very harsh realities will come to head in the postseason with our team and we will need to add a couple of pieces in the offseason. Adding Shump was a good move, but we really need someone who can score points off the bench most of all.
    BROWNS 2017: I'M JASON LA CANFORA'S INSIDER
    "I just do not get worked up over games anymore. I realized some time ago there is no point in getting worked up over them. I have no control over the outcome, it has no impact on me personally, and I have little to no actual facts to work from on properly analyzing the results." - Masters

    "My Mother's day card always says "Mum, I love you less than I love Joe Thomas. You can't even block, for fuck sakes." - brownsdownunder

    "Don't try to make me feel dumb for my opinion. You can kiss my ass." - MalcolmBrown

    "Hue and the guys are gonna turn that Frankenstein into a Frankenfine!" - next2nothing on RGIII

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enigmatic Evil View Post
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    Now here's Cleveland's best players by PER: LeBron (26.4), Kyrie (21.3), Love (19.5), Mozgod (19.3), TT (15.8).
    swear i didn't look at those stats this season.

    but aren't those 5 the ones i wanted together ? just saying

    Quote Originally Posted by Enigmatic Evil View Post
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    I like chatting basketball here, the reddit fans really like to have their blinders on. I don't blame them. LeBron is back, and this season has been a blast but I think some very harsh realities will come to head in the postseason with our team and we will need to add a couple of pieces in the offseason. Adding Shump was a good move, but we really need someone who can score points off the bench most of all.
    EE
    i went to/joined a site about a month back realfans something.
    they called me names ............. made me cry lol bunch of blind homers.. i get it but dam
    I like chatting with You too LMAO
    Last edited by madmadworld; 03-07-2015 at 01:09 AM.
    Always remember sports are like women:
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    Pro's only the Super Models play !

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  3. #3
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    Lmao I found that an amusing coincidence because you mentioned having them all on the floor at once. Mozgov has been huge for us. He's always been a player who wanted a shot for more playing time. He's owning it here
    BROWNS 2017: I'M JASON LA CANFORA'S INSIDER
    "I just do not get worked up over games anymore. I realized some time ago there is no point in getting worked up over them. I have no control over the outcome, it has no impact on me personally, and I have little to no actual facts to work from on properly analyzing the results." - Masters

    "My Mother's day card always says "Mum, I love you less than I love Joe Thomas. You can't even block, for fuck sakes." - brownsdownunder

    "Don't try to make me feel dumb for my opinion. You can kiss my ass." - MalcolmBrown

    "Hue and the guys are gonna turn that Frankenstein into a Frankenfine!" - next2nothing on RGIII

    WOOF WOOF WOOF!


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    Maserati not getting enough minutes .........David pulling the chain too much imo
    Always remember sports are like women:
    High School all the girls play,
    NCAA only good looking girls play,
    Pro's only the Super Models play !

    the most important reading you might ever do.
    http://fredsitelive.com/books/religion/genescott.htm

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    I think it's because Moz can get in to foul trouble quickly. He's a very physical player and isn't shy about mixing it up, centers in particular tend to foul out faster than other positions. So, a coach will pull the chain on his player so that he can have him late in the game, if you are worried your guy might have 3-4 fouls by half time, you have to make that call at some point.
    BROWNS 2017: I'M JASON LA CANFORA'S INSIDER
    "I just do not get worked up over games anymore. I realized some time ago there is no point in getting worked up over them. I have no control over the outcome, it has no impact on me personally, and I have little to no actual facts to work from on properly analyzing the results." - Masters

    "My Mother's day card always says "Mum, I love you less than I love Joe Thomas. You can't even block, for fuck sakes." - brownsdownunder

    "Don't try to make me feel dumb for my opinion. You can kiss my ass." - MalcolmBrown

    "Hue and the guys are gonna turn that Frankenstein into a Frankenfine!" - next2nothing on RGIII

    WOOF WOOF WOOF!


  6. #6
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    I understand that. but he pulls him after he fudges up. my guess he''s harder on him because he had him before.
    I just want to see him play thru his mistakes and not looking at the bench seeing if he gets pulled over it. players with all the i's dotted and t's crossed don't look back, he needs that confidence.imo
    Always remember sports are like women:
    High School all the girls play,
    NCAA only good looking girls play,
    Pro's only the Super Models play !

    the most important reading you might ever do.
    http://fredsitelive.com/books/religion/genescott.htm

  7. #7
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    I agree but man he played with plenty of confidence last night I thought. Mozgod is legit. He looked like he has fun but brings plenty of intenstity. 25 minutes, 19 pts, 8 reb, +25.

    I think that honestly, the reason you keep him around there (25-30 min) is you don't want to gas him. Odd enough he should be showing that prudence with his entire roster but given the bench situation, If you're going to get Hyde Delly or Jeckyll Delly, etc. You know what I mean, I can't blame him but it's taken him a while to figure out what guys he likes and what roles. Which is also another explanation for Perk's slow integration. (-14 in just under 8min...) and the slow emergence of James Jones. (who didnt' play, but didnt need to last night)

    Mozgov will get more minutes but it is dependent on how hot he's playing vs his foul numbers.
    Mozgod
    BROWNS 2017: I'M JASON LA CANFORA'S INSIDER
    "I just do not get worked up over games anymore. I realized some time ago there is no point in getting worked up over them. I have no control over the outcome, it has no impact on me personally, and I have little to no actual facts to work from on properly analyzing the results." - Masters

    "My Mother's day card always says "Mum, I love you less than I love Joe Thomas. You can't even block, for fuck sakes." - brownsdownunder

    "Don't try to make me feel dumb for my opinion. You can kiss my ass." - MalcolmBrown

    "Hue and the guys are gonna turn that Frankenstein into a Frankenfine!" - next2nothing on RGIII

    WOOF WOOF WOOF!


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    I think you start KLove so he's happy to be starting, but make him the first out of the rotation... then put him back in when you rest LeBron and focus a secondary offense around KLove so you can still be pulling away from teams with LBJ resting. If you want to make it pick & roll based with Kyrie, then the 2nd PG that you eventually add will need to be able to get to the basket to keep that secondary offense effective (when you're resting both Kyrie & LeBron... that's the goal.)

    Solve the question of depth come playoff time by making an effective 2nd offense around KLove that you run for 10 minutes a game from here on out.

    A bit puzzling this hasn't been worked on or done yet... the team has long "gelled" now this is the next logical step (that should have been started well before All-Star Break)
    Last edited by Lou Groza; 03-13-2015 at 07:18 AM.

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    Welcome to the Bandwagon Lou

    Did you see Love run High post offense with the T-Wolves ?
    this would be the answer to your statement. but no... we have seen none of it this season. yet
    with 16 games left better start this now !
    Always remember sports are like women:
    High School all the girls play,
    NCAA only good looking girls play,
    Pro's only the Super Models play !

    the most important reading you might ever do.
    http://fredsitelive.com/books/religion/genescott.htm

  10. #10
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    I agree with you Lou, as Love has some of the best post offense numbers in the NBA. For some reason Blatt does not seem to want to run the offense through Love, even when he may be the best option on the floor. He seems to prefer spacing, and sharing the ball. Oddly enough, changing it up and working the ball inside, attacking defenses from multiple levels and adding some complexity to the offense is something I think we WILL see in time.
    BROWNS 2017: I'M JASON LA CANFORA'S INSIDER
    "I just do not get worked up over games anymore. I realized some time ago there is no point in getting worked up over them. I have no control over the outcome, it has no impact on me personally, and I have little to no actual facts to work from on properly analyzing the results." - Masters

    "My Mother's day card always says "Mum, I love you less than I love Joe Thomas. You can't even block, for fuck sakes." - brownsdownunder

    "Don't try to make me feel dumb for my opinion. You can kiss my ass." - MalcolmBrown

    "Hue and the guys are gonna turn that Frankenstein into a Frankenfine!" - next2nothing on RGIII

    WOOF WOOF WOOF!


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