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Thread: O-Line - Not as good as we thought.

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    Default O-Line - Not as good as we thought.

    What was intended to be the best unit on the team, with three first round picks, two second round picks and a third round pick (Signed from free agency) invested - and more money than I dare count - quite simply isn't the best unit on the team.

    All three weeks, they've been lackluster or terrible. Quarterbacks are constantly getting pressured and being forced to run, the rushing game doesn't work at all and there are more moments of laughable failure than impressive success. Josh doesn't have the mobility that Johnny has to cover it up, in spite of not being a statue, and we don't have the weapons to help nullify such a performance.

    To top it all off, dumb fucking decisions are consistently made. Today I saw Khalil Mack, Oakland's elite pass rusher, blocked by a tight end once and a fullback once. What the actual fuck.

    When I've gone over it, all I see is terrible individual play. I don't think it's as much scheme as it is poor play. Joe Thomas is playing well, and that's about it. Alex Mack has been dreadful. Bitonio does not look like the rightful Pro-Bowler he did last season. Schwartz and Greco are more inconsistently bad than inconsistently good. The whole line keeps getting bitched, getting no push or force on the opposition, and almost always end up getting pushed back. There was a moment in the redzone today when we had our line + Cam Irving in for a rush, and the play immediately got blown up.

    What the fuck do we do?

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    Quote Originally Posted by brownsdownunder View Post
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    What was intended to be the best unit on the team, with three first round picks, two second round picks and a third round pick (Signed from free agency) invested - and more money than I dare count - quite simply isn't the best unit on the team.

    All three weeks, they've been lackluster or terrible.
    I just don't think so. Problem is more about poor play calling and a QB who holds on to the ball too long, and is not very mobile.

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    I don't think it's the play calling so much as the play calls not working as intended because our talent is inferior. There were several times today that McCown looked to throw but has to draw it back because the primary did not get open. And in the first two weeks, nobody but Travis Benjamin did anything at all except drop passes and waste space.

    Quarterback plays a part, but for the most part I don't see our passers getting the time that other teams generate. McCown was forced to step up in the pocket only to face immediate interior pressure. As I mentioned in the OP, it was different with Johnny because his mobility changed the script. They have to maintain a consistent line because if anyone overshoots, he has a lane to scramble. He also rolled out plenty because he can buy that time. Today was just more glaring, but I don't think any week has been good enough for me to really feel like quarterbacks holding the ball is the determining factor.

    I'm really annoyed. With this investment, we shouldn't be having this discussion, protection and run blocking should be the last of our concerns.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brownsdownunder View Post
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    Quarterback plays a part, but for the most part I don't see our passers getting the time that other teams generate. McCown was forced to step up in the pocket only to face immediate interior pressure. As I mentioned in the OP, it was different with Johnny because his mobility changed the script. They have to maintain a consistent line because if anyone overshoots, he has a lane to scramble. He also rolled out plenty because he can buy that time. Today was just more glaring, but I don't think any week has been good enough for me to really feel like quarterbacks holding the ball is the determining factor.
    Manziel was able to evade pass rush for the most part, despite super conservative and predictable play calling, which as far as I could see did not include any pass calls on 1st and 2nd down in second game. Other thing is of course that Raiders have underestimated D with one of the best pass-rushing duos in league with Mack and Smith. Plus 2013 super bowl MVP Malcom Smith at OLB. No slouches those ....

    Quote Originally Posted by brownsdownunder View Post
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    I'm really annoyed. With this investment, we shouldn't be having this discussion, protection and run blocking should be the last of our concerns.
    Maybe issue is also connected to coaching carousel, with recent suspension of OL coach.

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    The underestimated oak pass rush which came in to the day with zero sacks, and was bottom of the league last year in sacks and pressure.

    The browns ol can't get a push for a simple iso run or off tackle. Lack or "creative" play calling get is the signature blame box of the fan. Shit execution of basics isn't going to get fixed or masked by "creative" play calling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Masters View Post
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    The underestimated oak pass rush which came in to the day with zero sacks, and was bottom of the league last year in sacks and pressure.
    You have heard of Aldon Smith, haven't you, one of Raiders off season pickup? 2nd most sacks in league for 2012 regular season?

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    Quote Originally Posted by brownsdownunder View Post
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    What was intended to be the best unit on the team, with three first round picks, two second round picks and a third round pick (Signed from free agency) invested - and more money than I dare count - quite simply isn't the best unit on the team.

    All three weeks, they've been lackluster or terrible. Quarterbacks are constantly getting pressured and being forced to run, the rushing game doesn't work at all and there are more moments of laughable failure than impressive success. Josh doesn't have the mobility that Johnny has to cover it up, in spite of not being a statue, and we don't have the weapons to help nullify such a performance.

    To top it all off, dumb fucking decisions are consistently made. Today I saw Khalil Mack, Oakland's elite pass rusher, blocked by a tight end once and a fullback once. What the actual fuck.

    When I've gone over it, all I see is terrible individual play. I don't think it's as much scheme as it is poor play. Joe Thomas is playing well, and that's about it. Alex Mack has been dreadful. Bitonio does not look like the rightful Pro-Bowler he did last season. Schwartz and Greco are more inconsistently bad than inconsistently good. The whole line keeps getting bitched, getting no push or force on the opposition, and almost always end up getting pushed back. There was a moment in the redzone today when we had our line + Cam Irving in for a rush, and the play immediately got blown up.

    What the fuck do we do?
    Personally, I think part of it is the coaching.

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    Quote Originally Posted by legerdemain View Post
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    You have heard of Aldon Smith, haven't you, one of Raiders off season pickup? 2nd most sacks in league for 2012 regular season?
    2012 is a long time ago. He has also been with them for all of two weeks (zero sacks for him today by the way). Oak d has been giving up 30+ points, no sacks, and near the bottom of the league in rush d. The browns can't run, can't stop the run, and can't pressure the d. The lack of wr talent and who plays qb doesn't fix that. Fixating on McCown vs Manziel on this team is like focusing on the flat tire when your cars transmission blew
    Last edited by Masters; 09-27-2015 at 07:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Masters View Post
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    2012 is a long time ago. He has also been with them for all of two weeks (zero sacks for him today by the way). Oak d has been giving up 30+ points, no sacks, and near the bottom of the league in rush d. The browns can't run, can't stop the run, and can't pressure the d. The lack of wr talent and who plays qb doesn't fix that. Fixating on McCown vs Manziel on this team is like focusing on the flat tire when your cars transmission blew
    Interesting while we're on the discussion of stats, Tenn leads the league in FF = 6, (and in sacks btw it's incredible, S=9) yet according to the illustrious coach Pett, Johnny can't play since he fumbles too much ...
    Last edited by legerdemain; 09-27-2015 at 08:22 PM.

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    Subject of fumbles...???? No one was talking about fumbles.

    Keep worrying about that flat tire. And put on some gloves so you knuckles don't get so scratched up when you walk

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackOffense View Post
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    Personally, I think part of it is the coaching.
    Perhaps, but I'm not seeing too much that is asking too much. For the most part, the blocking scheme is actually pretty straight forward - there is your man, make the fucking play - and these players aren't making the play.

    You can't spend 3 first round picks, 2 second round picks and a third round pick free agent on the line and then fail because of scheme. No matter what base offense, formations or concepts we run, at that price, they should be able to run it.

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    Power blocking scheme with finesse guys.

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    This loss was deflating as fuck.

    The one unit that is supposed to be the biggest strength is not strong at all.

    Our o-line seems to rarely get a push on running plays. Guys miss blitz pickups. Or they simply get beat on passing downs.
    In the words of Tony Rizzo... "FIND ME A FREAKING QUARTERBACK!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Masters View Post
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    And put on some gloves so you knuckles don't get so scratched up when you walk
    Actually I think I'll save it for the safety eye goggles I was going to buy to protect my eyes so you don't scratch my eyeballs out.
    Last edited by legerdemain; 09-27-2015 at 08:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Masters View Post
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    Power blocking scheme with finesse guys.
    BINGO! Seems like the right answer -- square pegs in round holes! But shouldn't the coaching staff see this and adjust?

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    What do we do?

    1. Just keep watching game tape and trying to get better.

    2. Malcolm Johnson has to be in the blocking dog house. He needs coaching.

    3. McCown can't keep holding the ball.

    4. Watching Manning tonight, he gets the ball out pretty quick. Aka "an offensive lineman"s best friend"

    5. Where are all of these Duke out of the backfield plays?

    6. Can we modify this ZBS so there's an occasional trap block?

    7. Scrap Draughn and bring in Turbin ASAP. Maybe he can help protect the pocket.

    8. Bibbs now just because. He can't be a worse quick hitting threat than Housler.

    Meh, rereading the above, that's a weak list.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OconRecon View Post
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    What do we do?

    1. Just keep watching game tape and trying to get better.

    2. Malcolm Johnson has to be in the blocking dog house. He needs coaching.

    3. McCown can't keep holding the ball.

    4. Watching Manning tonight, he gets the ball out pretty quick. Aka "an offensive lineman"s best friend"

    5. Where are all of these Duke out of the backfield plays?

    6. Can we modify this ZBS so there's an occasional trap block?

    7. Scrap Draughn and bring in Turbin ASAP. Maybe he can help protect the pocket.

    8. Bibbs now just because. He can't be a worse quick hitting threat than Housler.

    Meh, rereading the above, that's a weak list.
    Good effort to come up with this list. A good coaching staff IS able to make adjustments. Coaching staffs that get FIRED have difficulty making adjustments. We'll see what happens. I rally can't believe the players are this bad.

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    So.. i looked at our blocking scheme the past few weeks.. then I looked at what we were doing last year.

    No where close to the same thing.

    Flip preached using "the same zone blocking scheme" as last year while throwing in "a little power run scheme"

    What we have here is the opposite.

    An ugly dated "power run" scheme with the occasional zone blocked play..

    Oh. . And the running plays that actually work.. are the zone blocked ones.

    We need to go back to what worked. We don't have the personnel for a power run scheme

    The time has come! Our Dynasty lies ahead!

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    I've been bitching about this zone blocking scheme the last two weeks. Crowell is a north south runner. Our line is not under sized and not extremely athletic. Shannahan brought it when he hired in with Pettine. Masters, if you are talking about going to a power blocking scheme as opposed to what we are doing now, then right on. But we are not trying to power block with finesse guys, we are doing the total opposite on the offensive front IMO.
    The best we looked imo today running the ball was spreading them out and letting the oline and crow go north and south, matter of fact, some guys in the shout box commented on Cro's burst of speed. Line blocking forward and Crowell running downhill, makes a power back look much better. As far as the pass blocking, we have a guy sitting on the bench with the legs to scramble and make a play, an arm with tendonitis stronger than the journeyman's, and the nut sack to want to make a big play. Fumbles will go away in time. too bad we have a defensive minded head coach and a rookie offensive coordinator..........

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    Fat, I am saying the problem is that they are trying get to run a more power blocking scheme as opposed to an actual zone blocking. The personnel fits the zone, not the power. PGL just summed it up well

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    No Fatkid.. Masters is right..

    We have a "Finesse" O-Line

    yet we are using Flips power schemes WAAAAY TOO MUCH.

    People forget, Flip did not and has not run the ZBS. He made an effort to learn it this offseason and implement it into his offense. Its obvious though that he isnt very comfortable with it, because its only used on like 33% of run plays.


    People also forget, that as good as Flip is with QB's.. and the passing game (which I will say I dont hate this passing scheme)..

    Flip was part of one of the worst run offenses in history last year. So implementing his "power" running schemes might not have been the best idea.

    The time has come! Our Dynasty lies ahead!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Masters View Post
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    Power blocking scheme with finesse guys.
    This.

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    I have been not-so-secretly worried about our uber-inexperienced, first time OC's ability to handle the job. Playcalling and the struggles of this OL can be viewed through the execution lens or the coaching/design lens. I'm not sure which it is, but Flip's lack of ANY coordinator experience is a bit of a red flag at this stage.

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    Now Grey, he had one year at San Jose

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