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Thread: O-Line - Not as good as we thought.

  1. #25
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    I apologize, as I have not went back and re watched or analyzed the game from today. Seemed to me while watching it live, any time we lined up with McCown under center, it looked like a zbs scheme to me. Felt like no one was getting to the next level or taking care of their gaps. Didn't seem to be any lanes or avenues and looked like we were trying to stretch plays on most runs. Looked to me like we were moving to the run instead of using leverage to open holes on the play side........

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    A lot of interesting comments today and tonight.

    The Browns looked lethargic and did not play well. However, they damn near tied the game in the fourth.

    McCown looked like an average QB/backup today. He can play a little better and a lot worse.

    Coming to the forum as a Manziel fan first and becoming a Browns fan gives me a different perspective. From the first day I joined the forum, every poster discussed and agreed on the need for a QBOTF. Yet, this is the second year in a row playing a QB who is obviously not the future. Can there be a better situation than this team, this year to play Manziel and get some real game experience?

    Why do the Browns insist on drafting a QB and then start an average veteran, create a QB controversy and subsequently watch the QB fail and label him a bust and fein surprise?

    If McCown gives the Browns a better chance to win (which I don't agree with) it's not by a significant margin. Manziel would not have converted some of the tougher third downs today, but would have hit Benji on at least one double move for a score. I also think he would have hit him on the last drive. Different strengths, but you wouldn't lose a lot.

    The offensive and defensive schemes are just not working. The offense looks too old school. Today was awful in the first half and benefited from a conservative Raiders defense in the second half. The first game produced a good offensive scheme the first half and no adjustments the second half. The titans game, good scheme the first half and way to conservative the second half.

    Unless they feel Manziel is too fragile because of his off the field issues this spring, the time to play is now. Bortles, Carr, Bridgewater all have a year under their belt. They've been through the fire and have had a lot of ups and downs. That's the way it is unless it's the Browns.

    Draft a QB in 2016, rinse and repeat.

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    I thought part of Flip's plan was to stay with Shanny's zbs to begin with. That and a play making Te

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    We can't run the ZBS all day. It was getting our big men gassed, becoming too predictable and destroying gap integrity when it didn't work. We busted some nice runs, but we also took a lot of hits for a loss. We've got to be able to run whatever, whenever. This personnel group is too experienced, and expensive, to just be restricted to a scheme we only worked with last season. Before that, we were running predominantly power, right?

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    I thought I wanted more power BDU, starting to question what I saw today, and I trust the guys view that tell me otherwise. I thought Shanny brought the zbs, and flip's plan was to continue the run scheme.

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    The reason the browns keep playing the vet instead of the drafted qb is they keep drafting late 1st round project qbs.

    When your 1st round draft pick qb took until this spring to be able to identify a Mike lb. That puts it all in to perspective.

    What the browns need to do is actually draft game changing players, get a GM who can identify that talent, and a coaching get staff that can develop it. Basically what they have been unable to do since 99'

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    It'll be interesting to see what Flip can do with it. First indication of a great coach - He can admit when his shit doesn't work, and adapt to make it work.

    This, Flip must do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brownsdownunder View Post
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    Before that, we were running predominantly power, right?
    Before that we ran the Chorv offense which was the Classic Air Coryell with power run schemes.. and we had our worst rushing season in a while.

    And before Chorv.. we had the worst Offensive Coordinators we could dream of

    The time has come! Our Dynasty lies ahead!

  9. #33
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    2013 is the only time I thought we sucked, but we had a lot of injuries. 2012, with Richardson as a rookie, was mostly successful. 2014 was quite good, especially with Mack down.

    Our line is very much in tact from that time. We shouldn't be struggling as much as we are with power running.

    What I'd give to actually see our guys catching passes out of the backfield. That seemed to be the entire idea of getting Malcom Johnson (A TE) and Duke. We need to start opening it up.

  10. #34
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    Well well well. Lookie here. We're number 1!




    In the Baltimore game, I often thought McCown was in trouble when he tried to go through too many progressions. That may have been Josh, that may have been Flip.

    But as the game went on, Josh and Flip discovered the "running" game with short passes to the Old Duke and Crow Medicine Show.

    Josh executing and Flip's offense is helping our unit get these grades. Recall it was reported McCown coming to Cleveland was aided by the terrible Tampa O line vs the Browns highly ranked O line.

    Baltimore's D line is legit. Our O line may finally be returning to form boys.

    #InFlipWeTrust
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    That's encouraging, but I still don't see it on film.

    A few more offensive displays like yesterday and we'll see defenses change the 9 guys in the box thing and maybe see a few more good runs between the tackles.
    "The quarterback question lingers, but the Browns traded and traded and traded and traded and traded and acquired nine players and three high draft choices.

    It's tough to argue those results." Pat McManamon 5-3-16

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    Cant remember if it was Jimmy smith or whomever it was that jumped the snap count a la Polomaulu and came right up the middle, but Alex Mack made a pretty damn heroic play just to bump the guy to buy time for McTouchdown to get a pass off (think it was a 3rd down conversion). Mack has had a slow start to the season (evidenced by his overall grade from PFF), but that was a ProBowl play.
    RIP 'spec.

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    The line has done a great job of responding, and Joe Thomas is a god among men. I've got mad love for those big motherfuckers. They got off to a rocky start, but they've picked up in the best way.

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    Joe is a Hall of Famer, first ballot, and fucking hillarious to boot.
    Amazing player and an amazing persona.
    http://www.barkinghard.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic1122_6.gif

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    Here's the PFF game grade (the Baltimore thread is closed, no biggie).

    Mosley graded out very poorly. I guess when Gary Barnidge is breaking your ankles...

    -----------------------------

    Here are the top takeaways and highest-graded players from the Cleveland Browns 33-30 win over the Baltimore Ravens.

    Cleveland Browns

    – The left side of the Browns’ line was a key reason for Cleveland’s upset of the Ravens. LT Joe Thomas (+5.6) is making a strong case for being the best at his position after another dominant game. He allowed just a hit and a hurry in 64 dropbacks, and finished second on the team with a run blocking grade of +2.1. Thomas wasn’t even the Browns best lineman however, with LG Joel Bitonio (+6.1) taking that honour. Bitonio wasn’t as effective in pass protection, allowing a sack in his 64 drop backs (+1.9 grade), but finished with easily the team’s best run blocking grade (+3.4). Cleveland’s offensive line in general was a big reason for their success; the unit combined for a +6.3 grade in pass protection and a +6.7 grade in the run game.

    – One free agent addition who is yet to make an impact is DE Randy Starks (-4.4). This was his worst game as a Brown. Starks was shut out as a pass rusher, despite playing 25 run snaps, resulting in a -0.9 grade in that facet of his play. It was in run defense where he struggled in particular however, recording a -2.6 grade, which put him in the bottom three on the team. In contrast to the impressive performance of the Browns’ offensive line, the defensive line struggled throughout the rotation. The six players to take snaps combined for a -5.7 grade in run defense and had just a solitary hit between them.

    – The Browns’ defensive rookies flashed against the Ravens, but both NT Danny Shelton (-1.6) and OLB Nate Orchard (0.0) had ultimately only average grades. Shelton graded positively in run defense, making three defensive stops and generating some good penetration against C Jeremy Zuttah, but was shutout as a pass rusher and had a foolish unnecessary roughness penalty where he gave the Ravens a new set of downs on the goal line. As for Orchard, he generated an impressive two hits and batted a pass in just 10 rushes, but failed to make any stops in the run game, resulting in a -1.5 grade.

    Top performers:

    LG Joel Bitonio +6.1

    LT Joe Thomas +5.6

    RT Mitchell Schwartz +2.0

    HB Isaiah Crowell +2.0

    SS Donte Whitner +1.9



    Baltimore Ravens

    – LT Eugene Monroe (+5.9) looked like a man on a mission on his return from injury. Just in time too, considering James Hurst (-0.0) was our bottom ranked OT through four weeks. Monroe gave up just a solitary hurry in 38 dropbacks, and finished with a run blocking grade of +3.8. Partnering him on the left side, Kelechi Osemele (+5.0) was not far behind his teammate. The only blip in pass protection was the sack he gave up to Armonty Bryant, although that was the only pressure he gave up in 38 drop backs.

    – ILB CJ Mosley (-4.1) had his worst-graded game since entering the NFL in 2014. As a run defender, he made just a pair of stops in 26 snaps and was generally easily blocked at the second level, resulting in a -2.5 grade in that facet of his play. That makes a stark contrast to his rookie season, where he avoided grading in the red throughout the entire year and only graded negatively in five games. As a pass rusher, he had just a single hurry in 17 drop backs. Finally, in coverage, he allowed 7-of-10 targets to be complete for 103 yards.

    – With the Ravens’ pass rush struggling without Terrell Suggs, an injury to Elvis Dumervil (+2.9) was the worst case scenario. Despite playing just 21 of 90 snaps before injury, Dumervil finished as the highest-graded Baltimore defender. He had a pair of stops against just four rushes, and had a hit and pair of hurries in 14 McCown passes. His replacement, Jason Babin, finished with a -4.7 grade, including his trademark three-penalty game, and recorded just a solitary hit.

    Top performers:

    LT Eugene Monroe +5.9

    LG Kelechi Osemele +5.0

    TE Nick Boyle +3.2

    OLB Elvis Dumervil +2.9

    RT Ricky Wagner +2.5

    CB Ladarius Webb +2.5
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    I don't understand PFF one bit.

    How does Barnidge and McCown not make the top performers of the Browns for that game?
    In the words of Tony Rizzo... "FIND ME A FREAKING QUARTERBACK!"

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    No clue. The run blocking grades, while appearing mind boggling on the surface, may be indicative of youthful RB's not taking advantage of what's there. That's been a nagging sub-theme so far this year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    No clue. The run blocking grades, while appearing mind boggling on the surface, may be indicative of youthful RB's not taking advantage of what's there. That's been a nagging sub-theme so far this year.
    That Joe Thomas guys needs to go work on his run blockimg. Out there with only a +2.1 from PFF. .....

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    Quote Originally Posted by next2nothing View Post
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    I don't understand PFF one bit.

    How does Barnidge and McCown not make the top performers of the Browns for that game?
    PFF is going nuts about the Browns OL and I don't see it and the stats don't support it. The OL did play better on Sunday, though, but they are likely in for a tough time against Denver this coming Sunday.

    Nate Orchard has a lot of athletic talent but has a history of being bad against the run. Given the Browns are so bad on the edge in stopping the run, it was surprising to me last season they didn't take Dupree from Kentucky at #19, a guy who is playing well for the Steelers and is pretty good against the pass and run.

    Very disappointed in Randy Starks who was such as good player for so long with Miami and is stinking up the joint for Cleveland. PFF got that one right.
    Last edited by AttackOffense; 10-13-2015 at 08:16 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Masters View Post
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    That Joe Thomas guys needs to go work on his run blockimg. Out there with only a +2.1 from PFF. .....
    Meanwhile, Football Outsiders' updated TEAM stats effective today have the Browns OL ranked 24th in run blocking and 26th in pass protection.

    It's the 9th wonder of the world that Joe Thomas has not contributed in any way whatsoever to this poor record!


    http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol
    Last edited by AttackOffense; 10-13-2015 at 09:02 AM.

  21. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackOffense View Post
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    Meanwhile, Football Outsiders' updated TEAM stats effective today have the Browns OL ranked 24th in run blocking and 26th in pass protection.

    It's the 9th wonder of the world that Joe Thomas has not contributed in any way whatsoever to this poor record!



    http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol


    I would just love to watch you run into Joe Thomas somewhere.. Then watch you genuflect and kiss his ass..
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    I pray someone takes a stack of SPARQ stats, and shoves them up smug Sashi Browns tight asshole" ~TBPP



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    Quote Originally Posted by nickers View Post
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    I would just love to watch you run into Joe Thomas somewhere.. Then watch you genuflect and kiss his ass..
    I think Joe Thomas has been a great player and is a good player now. But in my book he is not playing at a HOF level in terms of the totality of his game. A Hall of Fame quality player is more than just a pass protector, he also has the ability to open gaping holes for running backs to run through. You see guys like Yanda of Baltimore and others do it most games, but you rarely see Thomas consistently blow people off the line in the run game. I remember the days when if teams needed a first down in a key situation, they just run the back up the ass of the great OT and he'd get the push necessary to allow the back to get the first down. Rarely see that kind of attempt with Joe Thomas, and yet and the Browns could really use that kind of excellence as they have been relatively poor in the run in key short yardage situations. Still a great pass protector, though, as Khalil Mack will attest to.

    Let me add that a HOF caliber player also elevates the play of those around him. Don't see that happening either, although Joe Thomas is certainly an all pro talker these days. Browns almost totally abandoned the run against Baltimore because the run offense is so bad and the run blocking so bad, and Thomas is part of that in my view, not separate from it.
    Last edited by AttackOffense; 10-13-2015 at 10:12 AM.

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    AO, you are a fascinating character. You quite literally are not happy with anything on this team, including our best player.

    Your definition of a HOF doesn't include playing every snap for 9 years on terrible football teams and consistently being the best player on the field for the Browns?

    Your definition also doesn't include all the top pass rushers he's faced that he CONSISTENTLY denies, game after game after game, despite sub-part QB play 90% of the time?

    Man, you're the Tony Grossi to Joe Thomas's Art Modell, if that's the case.

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    I just dont see orlando pace holes.. Lol

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