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Thread: O-Line - Not as good as we thought.

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    I would say Anthony Munoz was probably the best at the position.. but JT is still great... And he is in no way hurting the team.. period!
    " There are no old running QB's in the NFL " ~ Sam Rutigliano. "
    I pray someone takes a stack of SPARQ stats, and shoves them up smug Sashi Browns tight asshole" ~TBPP



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    Coach Sam said it best, "There's lies, damn lies, and statistics."

    Most all of us here know what we're seeing and don't need to support it with stats. Especially when we don't know how those stats are formed. Does PFF or football outsiders give the formulas for how they determine their grades? That's what I'd like to see because some of these stats don't match what I'm seeing and I trust my eye every day over some website's stats.

    Look at the targets and drops thing for WR's. That's an opinion whether a WR dropped the ball or the QB made a bad throw AND we don't know how the play was designed.

    Last week in the Buckeyes game Jones made a throw to the right side intended for the WR that was 20 yards deep, but the WR who was 10 yards deep thought it was intended for him and jumped up for it and it went off his fingertips. If he just sat his ass down it would've been a 20 yard completion, maybe more. How is a play like that evaluated? Who gets the bad grade and who gets leniency? It's up to the opinion of a faceless guy somewhere on the internet. God forbid it should happen to Gordon and Goodell was grading. He'd be fucked.
    "The quarterback question lingers, but the Browns traded and traded and traded and traded and traded and acquired nine players and three high draft choices.

    It's tough to argue those results." Pat McManamon 5-3-16

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaydog View Post
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    when we don't know how those stats are formed. Does PFF or football outsiders give the formulas for how they determine their grades?
    I agree it's all just food for thought and not the bible. But funny enough, the grading is basically the eye-test as graded by "experts".

    Their explanation doesn't seem unreasonable.

    Ex: Should Gary B get a +2 on the (between the legs TD) catch, but Josh get a -2 on the TD throw? Perhaps so.
    But if Josh was under pressure, should that -2 at least be upgraded to a -1 or a zero? Not unreasonable.

    https://www.profootballfocus.com/about/how-we-grade/



    Quote Originally Posted by AttackOffense View Post
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    Browns almost totally abandoned the run
    I just did the 1-day free trial thingy over at PFF. Not sure if I'll buy or not as I can't find where to see play-by-play grades (I'd really like to see how McCown graded out last weekend). I've emailed them to see if I'm missing something, otherwise I'll pass.

    BTT, the grades I've gained access to basically say Alex Mack is getting run over. He grades out well below the rest of our O-line.

    So, if the middle is getting destroyed, I'm not sure how any team will do in short yardage situations between the tackles.

    It's probably why when we went for two last weekend, we opted for a quick throw to Gabriel instead of Malcom in the middle.

    Mack just isn't back yet. At least I hope that's it.
    Last edited by OconRecon; 10-14-2015 at 09:36 AM.
    2017 Draft class: Garrett, Peppers, Njoku, Kizer, Ogunjobi, Collins (via trade of 103), Wilson, Johnson, Brantley, Gonzalez, Dayes
    2018 Draft picks: Extra picks - a 1st (Texans), two in 2nd (Eagles & Texans), a 4th (Panthers/A.Lee), & a 6th (Steelers/Gilbert) - 12 total
    Philly trade result: C. Coleman, Peppers, Kizer, Kessler, R. Louis, S. Coleman, Drango, Kindred, Payton, 2018 1st rndr (Texans) & 2018 2nd rndr (Eagles)
    Training Camp schedule: Rookies report 7/23, vets 7/26, 1st practice 7/27

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    Quote Originally Posted by OconRecon View Post
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    I agree it's all just food for thought and not the bible. But funny enough, the grading is basically the eye-test as graded by "experts".

    Their explanation doesn't seem unreasonable.

    Ex: Should Gary B get a +2 on the (between the legs TD) catch, but Josh get a -2 on the TD throw? Perhaps so.
    But if Josh was under pressure, should that -2 at least be upgraded to a -1 or a zero? Not unreasonable.

    https://www.profootballfocus.com/about/how-we-grade/





    I just did the 1-day free trial thingy over at PFF. Not sure if I'll buy or not as I can't find where to see play-by-play grades (I'd really like to see how McCown graded out last weekend). I've emailed them to see if I'm missing something, otherwise I'll pass.

    BTT, the grades I've gained access to basically say Alex Mack is getting run over. He grades out well below the rest of our O-line.

    So, if the middle is getting destroyed, I'm not sure how any team will do in short yardage situations between the tackles.

    It's probably why when we went for two last weekend, we opted for a quick throw to Gabriel instead of Malcom in the middle.

    Mack just isn't back yet. At least I hope that's it.
    Both PFF and Football Outsiders describe their rating formula.

    The stats they provide are a good basis for discussion. Thanks again for sharing Ocon.

    Mack has been awful. Must be lack of drive on the injured leg.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nickers View Post
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    I would say Anthony Munoz was probably the best at the position.. but JT is still great... And he is in no way hurting the team.. period!
    Munoz used to clear out linemen, knocking them back with a jolt off the line. Don't see that much with Thomas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by damajuki View Post
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    AO, you are a fascinating character. You quite literally are not happy with anything on this team, including our best player.

    Your definition of a HOF doesn't include playing every snap for 9 years on terrible football teams and consistently being the best player on the field for the Browns?

    Your definition also doesn't include all the top pass rushers he's faced that he CONSISTENTLY denies, game after game after game, despite sub-part QB play 90% of the time?

    Man, you're the Tony Grossi to Joe Thomas's Art Modell, if that's the case.
    I just call it like it is, positive or negative. With the Brown,s unfortunately, mostly negative for 15 years now.

    Things I have said REPEATEDLY going back to the spring I like about the 2015 Browns:

    -- Draft choices Shelton, Erving, Orchard, Johnson, Gaines all very good players.
    -- Duke Johnson, maybe the best Browns RB since Greg Pruit. He hasn't hit his stride yet.
    -- Danny Shelton is the best NT the Browns have ever had, he'll get better
    -- Taylor Gabriel is my fav Browns player and a terrific talent, albeit limited by his stature.
    -- Browns OL has lots of talented people
    -- John DeFilippo is a bight young coach who I predict will be a head coach one day
    -- Joker Phillips was a great choice for receivers coach, he's a talented coach.
    -- Johnny Manziel is vastly improved over last year and looks now like he can lead this team
    -- Austin Davis was an excellent backup QB pick up by the Browns.

    As for Thomas, I am not saying he was not a great player in the past. I just think he is not playing at a HoF level this year, mostly in the run blocking area where I can consider him pretty NFL starter average. He is still a great pass blocker. My opinion. Clearly PFF and others disagree.

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    Munoz was from the days where drive-blocking was king. He was born, raised, and retired on the blocking sled. They just don't build'em that way any more.

    I'm sure JT would be honored to be mentioned in the same sentence as Munoz, who is probably THE gold standard of OT's.
    2017 Draft class: Garrett, Peppers, Njoku, Kizer, Ogunjobi, Collins (via trade of 103), Wilson, Johnson, Brantley, Gonzalez, Dayes
    2018 Draft picks: Extra picks - a 1st (Texans), two in 2nd (Eagles & Texans), a 4th (Panthers/A.Lee), & a 6th (Steelers/Gilbert) - 12 total
    Philly trade result: C. Coleman, Peppers, Kizer, Kessler, R. Louis, S. Coleman, Drango, Kindred, Payton, 2018 1st rndr (Texans) & 2018 2nd rndr (Eagles)
    Training Camp schedule: Rookies report 7/23, vets 7/26, 1st practice 7/27

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    Quote Originally Posted by OconRecon View Post
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    Munoz was from the days where drive-blocking was king. He was born, raised, and retired on the blocking sled. They just don't build'em that way any more.

    I'm sure JT would be honored to be mentioned in the same sentence as Munoz, who is probably THE gold standard of OT's.
    Even today you see Ts and Gs making good run blocks. That has happened only occasionally with the Browns OL, which is not playing up to its ability, despite what PFF says.

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    But we may change our tune if Flip, Duke, and Crow find the rhythm. There's still a chance it's about the system and the backs more than the O line's lack of ability (except for Mack - he needs to return to form).
    2017 Draft class: Garrett, Peppers, Njoku, Kizer, Ogunjobi, Collins (via trade of 103), Wilson, Johnson, Brantley, Gonzalez, Dayes
    2018 Draft picks: Extra picks - a 1st (Texans), two in 2nd (Eagles & Texans), a 4th (Panthers/A.Lee), & a 6th (Steelers/Gilbert) - 12 total
    Philly trade result: C. Coleman, Peppers, Kizer, Kessler, R. Louis, S. Coleman, Drango, Kindred, Payton, 2018 1st rndr (Texans) & 2018 2nd rndr (Eagles)
    Training Camp schedule: Rookies report 7/23, vets 7/26, 1st practice 7/27

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    Again...we need to look at circumstances.

    NFL teams so far have had the same thought about McCown as some on this board. Blitz him and he folds. So what they have been doing is a very heavy dose of run blitzes hoping to stuff the run and rattle McCown. Unfortunately for them, McCown has proven the ability to adapt and beat them downfield and with the short/quick routes.

    Still, this constant barrage of run blitzes has had a negative effect on the run game. This isn't the OL doing a poor job, nor is it bad RB play...it is a numbers game. 5-6 trying to block 7-8 defensive players.

    What will be interesting over the coming weeks will be how defenses start playing DUE to that success. Will they start dropping back into zone? Will they go 2 deep? Either of these reactions will open up the running game...AND the underneath passes to guys like Hawkins and Hartline.

    McCown has made them pay for the blitz....now the chess match begins.
    Football is all about synergy. Replace a poor player with a great player and watch the surrounding players suddenly seem vastly improved. When you aren't covering for someone else, you can do YOUR JOB better.



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    Okay, so now we're detracting from Thomas based on a comparison to a player that was recently rated as the 12th best of all time at any position? I've never seen someone go so far to pan a player on our team and a player who will go down as the best of his era at his position... a first ballot HOFer. That's messed up and a perfect example of the one individual going out of his way to suck the joy out of this forum.

    The Munoz comparison is bullshit anyway. This notion that Munoz was blowing guys off the line at a similar stage in his career is nonsense. Here's an article written in September of 1990 with Munoz coming off his ninth year in the league (similar stage to Joe now). The unbiased reader will see uncanny similarities in consistency, professionalism, AND technique.

    Enjoy.

    http://www.si.com/vault/1990/09/10/1...-off-the-field

    Can we put this horseshit to bed now?

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    No debate for me. He's awesome.
    2017 Draft class: Garrett, Peppers, Njoku, Kizer, Ogunjobi, Collins (via trade of 103), Wilson, Johnson, Brantley, Gonzalez, Dayes
    2018 Draft picks: Extra picks - a 1st (Texans), two in 2nd (Eagles & Texans), a 4th (Panthers/A.Lee), & a 6th (Steelers/Gilbert) - 12 total
    Philly trade result: C. Coleman, Peppers, Kizer, Kessler, R. Louis, S. Coleman, Drango, Kindred, Payton, 2018 1st rndr (Texans) & 2018 2nd rndr (Eagles)
    Training Camp schedule: Rookies report 7/23, vets 7/26, 1st practice 7/27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    Can we put this horseshit to bed now?
    Football is all about synergy. Replace a poor player with a great player and watch the surrounding players suddenly seem vastly improved. When you aren't covering for someone else, you can do YOUR JOB better.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    Okay, so now we're detracting from Thomas based on a comparison to a player that was recently rated as the 12th best of all time at any position? I've never seen someone go so far to pan a player on our team and a player who will go down as the best of his era at his position... a first ballot HOFer. That's messed up and a perfect example of the one individual going out of his way to suck the joy out of this forum.

    The Munoz comparison is bullshit anyway. This notion that Munoz was blowing guys off the line at a similar stage in his career is nonsense. Here's an article written in September of 1990 with Munoz coming off his ninth year in the league (similar stage to Joe now). The unbiased reader will see uncanny similarities in consistency, professionalism, AND technique.

    Enjoy.

    http://www.si.com/vault/1990/09/10/1...-off-the-field

    Can we put this horseshit to bed now?
    That was merely the point I was trying to make.. People just cant expect JT to play like a young man... Now if there was an under acheiver IMO it was Ryan Tucker... I saw him get beat and pancaked consistently.
    " There are no old running QB's in the NFL " ~ Sam Rutigliano. "
    I pray someone takes a stack of SPARQ stats, and shoves them up smug Sashi Browns tight asshole" ~TBPP



    Its Offense baby!!!!!" "ITS
    OFFENSE!!!!!

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    And today the o line is proving the op correct
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    I'm not so sure. There were sack calls where Jim Donovan was able to say "McCown drops back, he looks, pumps, climbs the pocket and looks again aaaaaaaand is sacked".

    Denver's D is good.

    JT absolutely owned Von Miller today. Owned.

    It was a scrappy game. Could have easily gone either way.
    2017 Draft class: Garrett, Peppers, Njoku, Kizer, Ogunjobi, Collins (via trade of 103), Wilson, Johnson, Brantley, Gonzalez, Dayes
    2018 Draft picks: Extra picks - a 1st (Texans), two in 2nd (Eagles & Texans), a 4th (Panthers/A.Lee), & a 6th (Steelers/Gilbert) - 12 total
    Philly trade result: C. Coleman, Peppers, Kizer, Kessler, R. Louis, S. Coleman, Drango, Kindred, Payton, 2018 1st rndr (Texans) & 2018 2nd rndr (Eagles)
    Training Camp schedule: Rookies report 7/23, vets 7/26, 1st practice 7/27

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    I was going to bring up JT vs Miller too, Ocon. There was more than a few plays where he absolutely stifled him, just in the quarter of football that I watched (the third). I feel like the right side of the line is the real weak link.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enigmatic Evil View Post
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    I was going to bring up JT vs Miller too, Ocon. There was more than a few plays where he absolutely stifled him, just in the quarter of football that I watched (the third). I feel like the right side of the line is the real weak link.

    Yeah.. Like how Schwartz got totally bamboozled and got McCown killed.
    " There are no old running QB's in the NFL " ~ Sam Rutigliano. "
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    I don't think that was Schwartz' assignment there Nickers. I think it was the rookie FB who missed the assignment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nickers View Post
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    Yeah.. Like how Schwartz got totally bamboozled and got McCown killed.
    Yeah that was the rookie M. Johnson who was on the edge and supposed to at least chip/redirect him inside.
    "The quarterback question lingers, but the Browns traded and traded and traded and traded and traded and acquired nine players and three high draft choices.

    It's tough to argue those results." Pat McManamon 5-3-16

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    Just heard Dieken on 92.3 say yesterday was the first time this season a defensive player had an impact game.
    "The quarterback question lingers, but the Browns traded and traded and traded and traded and traded and acquired nine players and three high draft choices.

    It's tough to argue those results." Pat McManamon 5-3-16

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    Dansby I presume? And, he's still getting abused in the run game.

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    Right. Dansby and right again.
    "The quarterback question lingers, but the Browns traded and traded and traded and traded and traded and acquired nine players and three high draft choices.

    It's tough to argue those results." Pat McManamon 5-3-16

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    We need a guy like this on the Oline.
    "The quarterback question lingers, but the Browns traded and traded and traded and traded and traded and acquired nine players and three high draft choices.

    It's tough to argue those results." Pat McManamon 5-3-16

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