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Thread: O-Line - Not as good as we thought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackOffense View Post
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    No, that is a big part of the problem. Another hiring mistake -- is that mistake on Deflip or Farmer?
    Neither...he was hired by the previous regime in January of 2014...Farmer didn't take over until March.
    Football is all about synergy. Replace a poor player with a great player and watch the surrounding players suddenly seem vastly improved. When you aren't covering for someone else, you can do YOUR JOB better.



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    Quote Originally Posted by DawgFan View Post
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    Neither...he was hired by the previous regime in January of 2014...Farmer didn't take over until March.
    Thanks for the update.

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    My take, Malcom Johnson is struggling and the receivers are not only too small to out jump someone, they also don't have the body to block today's popular "long" corners.

    AO, you were right. Our skill guys kind of suck (and of course, we're not using Duke much, who is the best skill guy we have).
    Anybody want to call Terrelle to block some? He has a massive wing span, which is a heck of a tool to block with.




    2017 Draft: Garrett, Peppers, Njoku, Kizer, Ogunjobi, Collins (via trade of 103), Wilson, Johnson, Brantley, Gonzalez, Dayes
    2018 EXTRA Draft picks: a 1st (Texans), two in 2nd (Eagles & Texans), a 4th (Panthers/A.Lee), a 5th (Chiefs/Cam) - 12 total
    2019 EXTRA picks: 7th rnd (w/ Coates)
    Philly trade result: C. Coleman, Peppers, Kizer, Kessler, R. Louis, S. Coleman, Drango, Kindred, Payton, 2018 1st rndr (Texans) & 2018 2nd rndr (Eagles)

    Draft countdown clock: http://www.draftcountdown.com/

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    Quote Originally Posted by OconRecon View Post
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    My take, Malcom Johnson is struggling and the receivers are not only too small to out jump someone, they also don't have the body to block today's popular "long" corners.

    AO, you were right. Our skill guys kind of suck (and of course, we're not using Duke much, who is the best skill guy we have).
    Anybody want to call Terrelle to block some? He has a massive wing span, which is a heck of a tool to block with.




    First task of a new Browns GM and head coach is to upgrade the skill positions on offense and find better linebackers on defense.

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    DON’T BLAME O-LINE FOR BROWNS’ OFFENSIVE STRUGGLES
    PFF's Sam Monson explains why Johnny Manziel will be taking the field behind the NFL's No. 2 offensive on TNF.

    The Cleveland Browns are averaging 3.4 yards per carry on the ground, and have surrendered 27 sacks across both starting quarterbacks—but PFF just ranked their offensive line as the second-best unit in the league through the first half of the season.

    Why?

    Every single starter along the line has a positive grade, which looks crazy when their running game can’t get anything done, and their quarterbacks have been sacked more than all but four other teams.



    Offensive lines are far too often perceived to be the only component in blocking for both the run and pass; in reality, they are only the most important part of a bigger puzzle. Backs, tight ends, and receivers all play a significant role, especially in certain blocking schemes.

    When you add up all the blocking grades by players at positions other than the offensive line, Cleveland doesn’t just rank towards the bottom—they’re dead last in the NFL, with a cumulative blocking grade of -29.1, three times worse than even “bad” teams, and five times worse than the league average.

    For as well as Gary Barnidge has been playing as a receiver, he has been little short of disastrous as a blocker—and Jim Dray has been little better in his snaps. FB Malcolm Johnson is our lowest-graded player at his position. No blocking scheme in football can get it done just with the five guys along the line—even a light defensive front has six guys in the box, one more than they can pick up—so you need the other players involved in the run game to hold up their end of the bargain to have any success on the ground.

    Consequently, the Browns are a team that likes to run outside zone, and can’t reliably get to the edge. Their average yards per carry around right end is 2.7; to the left, it’s just 1.1. Running either side of G John Greco, by contrast, is yielding an average of 4.0 yards per carry.

    When they run outside zone, the Browns have gained just 104 yards on 41 attempts (2.5 yards per carry), compared to more than a full yard better when they run inside. When they run outside zone, the blocking is generating an average of just 0.49 yards before the running back is contacted, which is 24th in the NFL. Inside, that jumps more than a yard, despite poor lead blocking.

    When you look at the passing game, the offensive line is again being undone by the other elements in the equation. Josh McCown has the 10th-highest percentage of passes that take 2.6 seconds or more, and Johnny Manziel is even worse at fourth-highest, with 55.6 percent of his passes taking longer than 2.5 seconds. The offensive line is simply being asked to pass block for longer than most teams.

    The team runs the sixth-most seven-step drops, and though the sacks are high, we have charged seven of those sacks to the Cleveland quarterbacks, four more than to any single lineman. Despite blocking in an offense that asks a lot of the linemen, we have only charged them with nine of the 27 sacks Cleveland has surrendered. Tight ends, running backs, and quarterbacks have been at fault for 13 of them (the remaining being some form of unblocked or clean-up pressure, which will not be charged to an offensive player).

    The offensive line alone has surrendered only 82 total pressures, 47 fewer than the worst unit in the league (San Diego).

    If you look only at the success of the Cleveland running backs and the number of times their QBs have hit the turf, you’d think the line has been doing a terrible job—but the tape places the finger of blame elsewhere on most of those plays. Cleveland’s offensive line has been grading well overall, with Joe Thomas, in particular, a perennial stud. The Browns’ issues on offense are because they’re not getting help from anywhere else.

    https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...ive-struggles/
    2017 Draft: Garrett, Peppers, Njoku, Kizer, Ogunjobi, Collins (via trade of 103), Wilson, Johnson, Brantley, Gonzalez, Dayes
    2018 EXTRA Draft picks: a 1st (Texans), two in 2nd (Eagles & Texans), a 4th (Panthers/A.Lee), a 5th (Chiefs/Cam) - 12 total
    2019 EXTRA picks: 7th rnd (w/ Coates)
    Philly trade result: C. Coleman, Peppers, Kizer, Kessler, R. Louis, S. Coleman, Drango, Kindred, Payton, 2018 1st rndr (Texans) & 2018 2nd rndr (Eagles)

    Draft countdown clock: http://www.draftcountdown.com/

  6. #102
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    There goes Joe Thomas being overrated again.... as usual.

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    One of my pet peeves with the Browns, and I guess the NFL in general - we never utilize the fullback position. It seemed like we were finally changing that with the selection of Malcom Johnson.

    When it comes to Madden, and yes it's childish, but since I was a kid I've never used a fullback in the true sense. I always draft a tight end or running back that I can put at fullback. He has to have speed and athleticism, and I don't even look at the (Surely pitiful) blocking traits. The guy I have at the moment is a 5'11, 200 pound speedster who has a higher yards per and yards after than some of my actual receivers do. He constantly draws linebacker attention and it's just all too easy. They give him space, I dump it off. They play him tight, I have a receiver running a post route (To draw the safety away from the corner) with my fullback running a wheel route - and the linebackers cannot keep up when I toss it up.

    I was really excited when the Browns actually went and drafted a fucking tight end to stick him at fullback! Johnson is a really athletic kid, and was drawing insane praise in training camp as a receiving threat for that very reason. Imagine my disappointment when the season arrives and we're either not using him or trying to use him as a traditional blocking tight end. What the fuck.

    Getting him involved in receiving is going to make linebackers hesitant to come up to the line of scrimmage for run stopping. How do you charge the line if the kid is often running into the flat? They'd have to wait for him to react otherwise they risk handing over the first down.

    I also HATE HATE HATE running formations. Oh, eight men on the fucking line, I wonder what you're doing. Has a running play ever actually worked from a run heavy formation? Don't be afraid to run from three or four wide. Don't be afraid to run from the shotgun. Don't be afraid to pass from a base formation that looks more run heavy. And, for the love of god, can we throw one screen. Just one.

    I think the run game would work better simply if we got a little more creative with how we use players.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OconRecon View Post
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    DON’T BLAME O-LINE FOR BROWNS’ OFFENSIVE STRUGGLES
    PFF's Sam Monson explains why Johnny Manziel will be taking the field behind the NFL's No. 2 offensive on TNF.

    The Cleveland Browns are averaging 3.4 yards per carry on the ground, and have surrendered 27 sacks across both starting quarterbacks—but PFF just ranked their offensive line as the second-best unit in the league through the first half of the season.

    Why?

    Every single starter along the line has a positive grade, which looks crazy when their running game can’t get anything done, and their quarterbacks have been sacked more than all but four other teams.



    Offensive lines are far too often perceived to be the only component in blocking for both the run and pass; in reality, they are only the most important part of a bigger puzzle. Backs, tight ends, and receivers all play a significant role, especially in certain blocking schemes.

    When you add up all the blocking grades by players at positions other than the offensive line, Cleveland doesn’t just rank towards the bottom—they’re dead last in the NFL, with a cumulative blocking grade of -29.1, three times worse than even “bad” teams, and five times worse than the league average.

    For as well as Gary Barnidge has been playing as a receiver, he has been little short of disastrous as a blocker—and Jim Dray has been little better in his snaps. FB Malcolm Johnson is our lowest-graded player at his position. No blocking scheme in football can get it done just with the five guys along the line—even a light defensive front has six guys in the box, one more than they can pick up—so you need the other players involved in the run game to hold up their end of the bargain to have any success on the ground.

    Consequently, the Browns are a team that likes to run outside zone, and can’t reliably get to the edge. Their average yards per carry around right end is 2.7; to the left, it’s just 1.1. Running either side of G John Greco, by contrast, is yielding an average of 4.0 yards per carry.

    When they run outside zone, the Browns have gained just 104 yards on 41 attempts (2.5 yards per carry), compared to more than a full yard better when they run inside. When they run outside zone, the blocking is generating an average of just 0.49 yards before the running back is contacted, which is 24th in the NFL. Inside, that jumps more than a yard, despite poor lead blocking.

    When you look at the passing game, the offensive line is again being undone by the other elements in the equation. Josh McCown has the 10th-highest percentage of passes that take 2.6 seconds or more, and Johnny Manziel is even worse at fourth-highest, with 55.6 percent of his passes taking longer than 2.5 seconds. The offensive line is simply being asked to pass block for longer than most teams.

    The team runs the sixth-most seven-step drops, and though the sacks are high, we have charged seven of those sacks to the Cleveland quarterbacks, four more than to any single lineman. Despite blocking in an offense that asks a lot of the linemen, we have only charged them with nine of the 27 sacks Cleveland has surrendered. Tight ends, running backs, and quarterbacks have been at fault for 13 of them (the remaining being some form of unblocked or clean-up pressure, which will not be charged to an offensive player).

    The offensive line alone has surrendered only 82 total pressures, 47 fewer than the worst unit in the league (San Diego).

    If you look only at the success of the Cleveland running backs and the number of times their QBs have hit the turf, you’d think the line has been doing a terrible job—but the tape places the finger of blame elsewhere on most of those plays. Cleveland’s offensive line has been grading well overall, with Joe Thomas, in particular, a perennial stud. The Browns’ issues on offense are because they’re not getting help from anywhere else.

    https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...ive-struggles/
    I don't buy it and neither do many others. The fact the Browns lead the NFL in total QB hits/sacks combined isn't all the fault of WRs and RBs and slow release by McCown. Just watch the film.

    The fact the Browns can't open any holes in short yardage situations or rarely in any other situation isn't the fault of WRs and TEs. Just watch the film.

    PFF looks like a bunch of fools with their ratings of this OL. It's not surprising, though, that people who are blind to this team's weaknesses buy in to it all hook, line and sinker!

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    Ah, the irony just oozes from this one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    Ah, the irony just oozes from this one.
    Yes, Football Outsiders, which rates offensive lines in detail, has the Browns ranked 30th in run blocking and 27th in pass blocking, and it's one of the miracles of our times that in an era of integrated play among offensive linemen that 4 Browns linemen are all bad and totally responsible for the failures while one lineman, Joe Thomas, is miraculously removed from contributing in any way, shape or form to the Browns OL mess.

    What's stunning is that despite having a future HOF left tackle, the Browns run less over left tackle than nearly every team in pro football! http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol
    Last edited by AttackOffense; 11-05-2015 at 02:43 PM.

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    Football Outsiders vs PFF....funny how they differ on a regular basis.

    I would love to find out who actually does these tape analyses...who are these 'experts' that can turn around a complete analytical report on 800-1000 players per week.

    The funny part is...they are so often diametrically opposed it is almost like watching politics...with the lemmings choosing the 'expert' that supports their personal views.

    I can't count how many times I have made an analytical comment based on film and stats...only to have PFF thrown in my face as if it was some sort of bible. Hmmm. I guess even bibles have typos???
    Football is all about synergy. Replace a poor player with a great player and watch the surrounding players suddenly seem vastly improved. When you aren't covering for someone else, you can do YOUR JOB better.



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    Joe thomas is a horrible run blocker.

    I wanna play erving somewhere. Our oline is not getting holes opened. Thomas or mack or both will not be here next year.

    Thomas is good passblocking lt...if he can quit cheating and starting to move back before ball snapped. He already has one leg back and shows he passblocking. And if he doesnt...its runblocking or pa. Our team is by far most obvious to tell what we are doing or going to do.

    Deflippio is just getting confortable with things.

    Mike pettine is the reason we are predictable, offense stalling, and still running ball when we cant. Not playing duke johnson enough.




    I seriously think pettine is done and has been since before oakland game. He lost the team pulling manziel. He knows he fired and he is purposely ruining our season.


    Not playing johnson and makjng plays.....continue to run ball when we cant....losing vs cardinals bc of that and playing mccown who cant walk. Losing to broncos bc mccown int at end lf regulation and cant get 10 yards to get fg in ot.


    Coaching decisions are not anything close to nfl caliber

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    PFF tweeting with pride:


    2017 Draft: Garrett, Peppers, Njoku, Kizer, Ogunjobi, Collins (via trade of 103), Wilson, Johnson, Brantley, Gonzalez, Dayes
    2018 EXTRA Draft picks: a 1st (Texans), two in 2nd (Eagles & Texans), a 4th (Panthers/A.Lee), a 5th (Chiefs/Cam) - 12 total
    2019 EXTRA picks: 7th rnd (w/ Coates)
    Philly trade result: C. Coleman, Peppers, Kizer, Kessler, R. Louis, S. Coleman, Drango, Kindred, Payton, 2018 1st rndr (Texans) & 2018 2nd rndr (Eagles)

    Draft countdown clock: http://www.draftcountdown.com/

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    Dear Joe Thomas.

    Thank you for keeping Johnny upright against the Bungholes. It hasn't happened yet, but it's happened every week ever, so this is merely preemptive.

    I love you, and I'm sorry we have dumb fans who think you're not good. We promise to try and educate them if you promise to keep being a 8x Pro-Bowler, future hall of famer and the best at the position both currently and throughout the modern era - if not the best ever.

    Love,
    Everyone with a brain and eyes that function as they should.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DawgsDefense View Post
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    Joe thomas is a horrible run blocker.

    I wanna play erving somewhere. Our oline is not getting holes opened. Thomas or mack or both will not be here next year.

    Thomas is good passblocking lt...if he can quit cheating and starting to move back before ball snapped. He already has one leg back and shows he passblocking. And if he doesnt...its runblocking or pa. Our team is by far most obvious to tell what we are doing or going to do.

    Deflippio is just getting confortable with things.

    Mike pettine is the reason we are predictable, offense stalling, and still running ball when we cant. Not playing duke johnson enough.




    I seriously think pettine is done and has been since before oakland game. He lost the team pulling manziel. He knows he fired and he is purposely ruining our season.


    Not playing johnson and makjng plays.....continue to run ball when we cant....losing vs cardinals bc of that and playing mccown who cant walk. Losing to broncos bc mccown int at end lf regulation and cant get 10 yards to get fg in ot.


    Coaching decisions are not anything close to nfl caliber

    God God.. Your couldn't be more ignorant.. Pettine fired already?...Your really grasping straws here Dufus Dawg.
    " There are no old running QB's in the NFL " ~ Sam Rutigliano. "
    I pray someone takes a stack of SPARQ stats, and shoves them up smug Sashi Browns tight asshole" ~TBPP



    Its Offense baby!!!!!" "ITS
    OFFENSE!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DawgFan View Post
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    Football Outsiders vs PFF....funny how they differ on a regular basis.

    I would love to find out who actually does these tape analyses...who are these 'experts' that can turn around a complete analytical report on 800-1000 players per week.

    The funny part is...they are so often diametrically opposed it is almost like watching politics...with the lemmings choosing the 'expert' that supports their personal views.

    I can't count how many times I have made an analytical comment based on film and stats...only to have PFF thrown in my face as if it was some sort of bible. Hmmm. I guess even bibles have typos???
    Meanwhile, the Browns QBs have been hit and sacked more than just about every other team's QBs in pro football, and the starting QB has been beat up more than a 6 year kid in a rumble with a high school senior, but kudos to the Browns offensive line!

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    Quote Originally Posted by OconRecon View Post
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    PFF tweeting with pride:


    Browns OL has some talent; this year poorly coached, organized and motivated compared to many OLs in the NFL. Alex Mack should be ashamed of the way he has played!

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    1.1 yard per carry running behind joe thomas for the year


    4.0 behind greco.

    Yeah. Penalties.....no discipline.

    Horrible run blocking by thomas and mack.

    Manziel needs mack,thomas, and schwartz to block and stay blocking. Let manziel extend plays....get out of pocket and make highlight plays and get the team having fun.....and winning.

    Yep im ignorant. I said he sucked as coach, we have no passrush....and defense is too vanilla and worthless.


    Said all this before cincy last year.

    Pettine has no emotion. Team has no emotion bc it.

    Same ol bullshit....

    Conservative playcalling that cannot win u games in nfl in 2015. Horrible d.... Cant stop anyone.

    Playing mccown and hoyer and costing team reps with manziel and whole team growing and gettiin valueable experience.

    This should be manziels year two starting.... Line would be used to him but they cannot play with real playmaker

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    I stand by the whole suspending/firing our OL coach early in the year likely did us zero favours as we implemented a new offense...
    BROWNS 2017: FUCK IT, DUDE... LET'S GO BOWLING

    "I just do not get worked up over games anymore. I realized some time ago there is no point in getting worked up over them. I have no control over the outcome, it has no impact on me personally, and I have little to no actual facts to work from on properly analyzing the results." - Masters

    "Don't try to make me feel dumb for my opinion. You can kiss my ass." - MalcolmBrown

    WOOF WOOF WOOF!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DawgsDefense View Post
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    1.1 yard per carry running behind joe thomas for the year


    4.0 behind greco.

    Yeah. Penalties.....no discipline.

    Horrible run blocking by thomas and mack.

    Manziel needs mack,thomas, and schwartz to block and stay blocking. Let manziel extend plays....get out of pocket and make highlight plays and get the team having fun.....and winning.

    Yep im ignorant. I said he sucked as coach, we have no passrush....and defense is too vanilla and worthless.


    Said all this before cincy last year.

    Pettine has no emotion. Team has no emotion bc it.

    Same ol bullshit....

    Conservative playcalling that cannot win u games in nfl in 2015. Horrible d.... Cant stop anyone.

    Playing mccown and hoyer and costing team reps with manziel and whole team growing and gettiin valueable experience.

    This should be manziels year two starting.... Line would be used to him but they cannot play with real playmaker
    DawgDefense, your opinions are no worse nor better than anyone else's. I've seen a lot of stuff written on this board that some thought was wacky but turned out to be absolutely on target.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enigmatic Evil View Post
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    I stand by the whole suspending/firing our OL coach early in the year likely did us zero favours as we implemented a new offense...
    Man, do I agree with this! And one wonders if the guy was distracted from his job with stuff going on behind the scenes in his personal life. He did a decent job for the Ravens a few years back, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DawgsDefense View Post
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    Joe thomas is a horrible run blocker.

    I wanna play erving somewhere. Our oline is not getting holes opened. Thomas or mack or both will not be here next year.

    Thomas is good passblocking lt...if he can quit cheating and starting to move back before ball snapped. He already has one leg back and shows he passblocking. And if he doesnt...its runblocking or pa. Our team is by far most obvious to tell what we are doing or going to do.

    Deflippio is just getting confortable with things.

    Mike pettine is the reason we are predictable, offense stalling, and still running ball when we cant. Not playing duke johnson enough.




    I seriously think pettine is done and has been since before oakland game. He lost the team pulling manziel. He knows he fired and he is purposely ruining our season.


    Not playing johnson and makjng plays.....continue to run ball when we cant....losing vs cardinals bc of that and playing mccown who cant walk. Losing to broncos bc mccown int at end lf regulation and cant get 10 yards to get fg in ot.


    Coaching decisions are not anything close to nfl caliber
    I agree with most of what you said, not playing Duke is more a durability issue than Pettine. I think Duke will always be a situational player. Don't think he can take the pounding of an every down back.
    I agree on the O line, it's rare when the back has a hole to run through. They're better than that, I don't know why the O line is not playing better.

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    Glad we abandoned the run in the 2nd half. Particularly when in the first half it looked like Crowell (& the OL) was having his (their) best game of the season.

    Against the #2 defense.

    Just fucking quit, Mike.
    RIP 'spec.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Legacy Fan View Post
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    Glad we abandoned the run in the 2nd half. Particularly when in the first half it looked like Crowell (& the OL) was having his (their) best game of the season.

    Against the #2 defense.

    Just fucking quit, Mike.
    Is that on Pettine or Flip though?

    I also love how Duke Johnson makes a huge play last week against Arizona then disappears and then this week barely touches the ball. He got the TD pass then didn't really make any impact. I just think they should be getting the ball to him more often.
    Last edited by next2nothing; 11-06-2015 at 06:40 AM.
    In the words of Tony Rizzo... "FIND ME A FREAKING QUARTERBACK!"

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