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Thread: You're gonna eat lightnin' and you're gonna crap MEGATHREADS! (QB 29)

  1. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoatShoes View Post
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    Does anyone else find it odd those who call others' "manziel apologist" make so many apologies/excuses for Pettine?

    I haven't seen the game yet.

    But I find it baffling, the idea of questioning pettines leadership is so crazy to some around here.

    Hell, the most leadership I've seen is farmer getting suspended for emotionally giving too much of a fuck.

    And that's a knock against the guy?

    This pet is football Jesus' to some of you.

    It's far more bizarre than any manziel fanboy you could show me.

    At what point does having the worst rushing defense fall on your defensive minded head coach?

    At what point does players/coaches getting suspended/cut/ for attitude/alcohol problems fall on the head coach?

    At what point do all the penalties fall on the head coach?

    All the inconsistency?

    And we're not even talking about it all being pettines fault, it's the suggestion it could be that's driving people nuts.

    It was before the season I asked what it was specifically Pettine did that made him such a great coach...

    I think the answers were...

    He gets the team to play hard
    And he gives good interviews.

    If anyone wants me to update that spreadsheet, let me know.
    Well, according to BDU, he doesn't get the players to play hard, so I guess you can mark that off. And as for giving good interviews, I guess I would contest that. He seems to be rather gloom and doom in his interviews to me. If he is that way with the team, that may be one of the reasons he doesn't seem to be able to motivate the team in a positive way.

    I wouldn't say he has lost the team just yet. He is the boss and he still has a hell of a carrot: playing time. I am not totally convinced that it was actually Haden's decision to not play Sunday. Also, I could be wrong, but I have the sense that Pettine is a guy who can hold a grudge long term and once in his doghouse, it is forever getting out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brownsdownunder View Post
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    I think this speaks volumes. You haven't seen the game, but it's all Pettine's fault.

    Funnily enough, the people "defending" Pettine, like myself, seem significantly more interested in the players actually playing well than seeing the coach blamed for everything that's going to result in a blown up roster... because the fucking players aren't playing well.

    I'm sick of watching guys not get off blocks only for the fucking coach to be blamed because we didn't get a free runner every play.
    I'm sick of bums like Dwayne Bowe ruining this team but the coach being blamed because he can't get water from that stone.
    I'm sick of corners getting burned but the coaching being blamed even though it's a press man scheme and they've gotta be able to hold their own. It's not a bad scheme, it's bad play, and the players need to be held accountable for once in this team's history.
    I'm sick of this team taking dumbass penalties but it's the coaches fault, like he didn't think to tell them "Don't jump offside."
    I'm sick of this team missing tackles but the coach being blamed because apparently he didn't team them that, I don't know, you have to make tackles. Fuck it, Pettine, waste the next month teaching basic tackling techniques that no other team has to teach because we're the fucking Browns and it's all your fault when players don't tackle, how were they to know!
    I'm sick of half-heated performances being the "coaches responsibility" because apparently these players don't need to give a fuck on their own.

    What makes Pettine a great coach? What makes these players so damn good? Please point out to me all the guys playing at an all-pro level but are being fucked because of the scheme.

    Why do the people who point out the Manziel apologists 'defend' Pettine? Might be because every Manziel apologist seeks every excuse to blame Pettine for the dumbest shit on the weekly that has to be corrected.
    How does someone earn the title of "Manziel apologist" merely for wanting the team and fans to find out if Manziel can be an upper level QB?

    You say: "As for finding out what we've got in Johnny, there's no point. Pettine is gone anyway so he's not going to waste his time benching McCown, who played lights out, just to find out what the next coach has got."

    No point? I say that as the head coach, it is his job to act in the best interests of the Cleveland Browns and not just in his own self interests. That's the point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoatShoes View Post
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    Does anyone else find it odd those who call others' "manziel apologist" make so many apologies/excuses for Pettine?

    I haven't seen the game yet.

    But I find it baffling, the idea of questioning pettines leadership is so crazy to some around here.
    Context.

    Seriously, bro.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brownsdownunder View Post
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    I think this speaks volumes. You haven't seen the game, but it's all Pettine's fault.

    Funnily enough, the people "defending" Pettine, like myself, seem significantly more interested in the players actually playing well than seeing the coach blamed for everything that's going to result in a blown up roster... because the fucking players aren't playing well.

    I'm sick of watching guys not get off blocks only for the fucking coach to be blamed because we didn't get a free runner every play.
    I'm sick of bums like Dwayne Bowe ruining this team but the coach being blamed because he can't get water from that stone.
    I'm sick of corners getting burned but the coaching being blamed even though it's a press man scheme and they've gotta be able to hold their own. It's not a bad scheme, it's bad play, and the players need to be held accountable for once in this team's history.
    I'm sick of this team taking dumbass penalties but it's the coaches fault, like he didn't think to tell them "Don't jump offside."
    I'm sick of this team missing tackles but the coach being blamed because apparently he didn't team them that, I don't know, you have to make tackles. Fuck it, Pettine, waste the next month teaching basic tackling techniques that no other team has to teach because we're the fucking Browns and it's all your fault when players don't tackle, how were they to know!
    I'm sick of half-heated performances being the "coaches responsibility" because apparently these players don't need to give a fuck on their own.

    What makes Pettine a great coach? What makes these players so damn good? Please point out to me all the guys playing at an all-pro level but are being fucked because of the scheme.

    Why do the people who point out the Manziel apologists 'defend' Pettine? Might be because every Manziel apologist seeks every excuse to blame Pettine for the dumbest shit on the weekly that has to be corrected.
    This was the worst argument I have ever read.

    I don't know if you want to clone or make love to your pet scape goats.
    Last edited by BoatShoes; 10-06-2015 at 05:46 AM.

  5. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldDawgCliff View Post
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    How does someone earn the title of "Manziel apologist" merely for wanting the team and fans to find out if Manziel can be an upper level QB?

    You say: "As for finding out what we've got in Johnny, there's no point. Pettine is gone anyway so he's not going to waste his time benching McCown, who played lights out, just to find out what the next coach has got."

    No point? I say that as the head coach, it is his job to act in the best interests of the Cleveland Browns and not just in his own self interests. That's the point.
    Johnny Manziel - 21/39 for 354 yards, 3 touchdowns and 1 interception.
    Josh McCown - 60/90 for 697 yards, 4 touchdowns and 1 interception.

    How is Johnny the best thing for the Cleveland Browns? McCown is thoroughly outplaying him. Especially when considering that all of Johnny's touchdowns and over half his yards came on only three of his passes. The other thirty-six passes put him right at the bottom of the NFL in just about every measurable category as the offense struggled to move. The same cannot be said for McCown, who has consistently moved the chains and played well.

    All you could hang your hat on is Manziel developing for the future. A future we both know the coach isn't going to be part of. So, he should take a step backwards at quarterback now to maybe take a step forward for a future he won't be part of and nor will Johnny? That defies all rational logic. That's not self interests, that's starting the quarterback who gives the Cleveland Browns the best chance to win on a weekly basis.

    And, before you complain, yes I know you have ambitions of a new coach coming in and keeping Flip, not drafting/signing a quarterback and anointing Johnny his quarterback of the future. It's just not going to happen. It never works that way.

    What earns someone the Manziel apologist tag is worrying about the quarterback position? If you can't see it, you won't see it. Let's not waste our time.

    Then again, I don't really give a fuck this week. My favorite team over here just won the NRL grand final, remarkably doing so by holding players accountable, playing only those who want it and play like they want it, not blowing up the roster and not overturning coaches every other year. It's amazing how such traits correlate to every major sporting organization in every world sport that competes at the highest level. Not the Browns, though, what we've been doing for the past 15 years is totally working - and we both know the familar sense of deja vu is coming this off season. I look forward to seeing the next coach try to rebuild this roster within two years while implementing two new schemes with a rookie quarterback. Can't wait!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoatShoes View Post
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    This was the worst argument I have ever read.

    I don't know if you want to clone or make love to your pet scape goats.
    Just know that you're argumentative as fuck. When you don't argue back, it's clear you're just not capable of doing it.

    Simply trying to phrase it "BDU wants to hold players accountable and not fire the coaches every year. That is such a weak argument!" makes it clear why you won't even try.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldDawgCliff View Post
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    Well, according to BDU, he doesn't get the players to play hard, so I guess you can mark that off.
    Fuck sakes, more reading lessons for Cliff.

    I did not say Pettine can't get the players playing hard. I said if the players aren't interested in playing hard on their own accord, they're not even worth the coaching.

    Well, according to Cliff, It's too much to ask that players have fire in their belly, red in their eyes and winning on their mind. They don't have to want it. They don't even have to pretend. The coach has to teach them to want it. This team needs 52 more Dwayne Bowes.

    Sadly, I didn't have to take your words out of context to pull that off.

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    Its like a two on one cage match and the "one" is kicking ass.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brownsdownunder View Post
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    Just know that you're argumentative as fuck. When you don't argue back, it's clear you're just not capable of doing it.

    Simply trying to phrase it "BDU wants to hold players accountable and not fire the coaches every year. That is such a weak argument!" makes it clear why you won't even try.
    I am argumentative as fuck; me not making an argument could be conceding a point-but I usually offer that directly.

    In this case, I did make an argument-ish. I said you were scapegoating everything.

    To engage here, would be turning your scapegoats into wizard of oz strawmen because you don't seem to recognize the responsibility of a head coach.

    Yes, I'm saying your 'argument' doesn't have a brain.

    When there are several reoccurring problems among several members of a team-that is a leadership problems.

    If you want to argue this-fine, let's set terms.

    What are the responsibilities of a head football coach in the NFL?
    Last edited by BoatShoes; 10-06-2015 at 11:54 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    Its like a two on one cage match and the "one" is kicking ass.
    Uh, ok.

    Pettine is a good coach because his players don't try good.

    Yea-kick ass, man.

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    We can talk about Pettine's performance as head coach. I think there's a lot to dissect there.

    The reason I'm cavalier about your approach, BS, is because all roads seem to inevitably lead to a Manziel-based point. (And you actually invoked the term "strawman"? Now that's funny.)

    If you are willing to put the back-up QB off the table, then we can have the discussion. That wouldn't be in this thread, however.

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    Any predictions on whether or not Manziel is still a Cleveland Brown for game 1 of next season? My guess is he'll be gone, unfortunately.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangelo930 View Post
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    Any predictions on whether or not Manziel is still a Cleveland Brown for game 1 of next season? My guess is he'll be gone, unfortunately.
    My prediction is that Manziel will be here and he'll be the starter. But like I have said -- need to get a higher quality of people at the skill positions, especially WR. Manziel thrives with a big, fast, playmaking receiver around as he did with Evans. make 1+1=3, not 1.5

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    I think he'll be here, but for our collective benefit this team needs to play competitively and win some football games in November and December. There's no franchise in more desperate need of continuity than our beloved Brownies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    We can talk about Pettine's performance as head coach. I think there's a lot to dissect there.

    The reason I'm cavalier about your approach, BS, is because all roads seem to inevitably lead to a Manziel-based point. (And you actually invoked the term "strawman"? Now that's funny.)

    If you are willing to put the back-up QB off the table, then we can have the discussion. That wouldn't be in this thread, however.
    How can you take it off the table? Why do you want to? Playing a 36 year old journeyman QB while on your way to a 4 or 5 win season with your first round, second year QB as a backup is ripe for debate.

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    The problem is Pettine. No other way around it. The buck stops with him. This is a systemic problem with this team and he's in charge.

    The truth is he's not the calm, cool daddy he portrays in his pressers. He's undisciplined and produced an undisciplined product.

    He believes in the buddy system of football, coaches and players. The Browns are the perfect destination for has been, over the hill veterans. Make believe preseason competition, no accountability for results on the field and a HC that will go the extra mile to excuse it.

    I like Whitner, but the guy should be on the bench. He's not because he's a veteran and that's what's important to Pettine.

    I'm surprised McCown is not being compared to Favre or Brady or Manning after that last game. It was a solid game with a nice drive to tie but give me a break. It simply wasn't superior QB play. Still can't go long, half of his yardage was to the running backs, mainly on check downs and YAC. Browns fans have the same brain lesions as the HC. We'll start this retread for another 3-12 games and when he sucks, the same people supporting him will come out of the woodwork and rip him to shreds.

    Final step is draft a QB in 2016 and repeat the same process. Sounds great Greythan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brownsdownunder View Post
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    Are you really content with players who aren't self motivated?

    "I'd sure love to play hard, but I don't like the coach."

    I don't know about you, but I have no tolerance for that shit.

    Oh, and lastly, maybe Farmer just needs to draft better and not get suspended. He's got maybe one draft pick out there playing well, but it's all Pettine's fault. Right.
    I am of the opinion that people by nature ARE NOT self motivated, the greats in any field are the ones that can motivate. People are motivated by money, or fear, or fame, or love, or a bunch of other things, its rare you find someone that rolls out of bed in the morning determined to execute their day at a high level just because.

    Does someone lay back because they do not like their boss or coach? Every damn day. Do people perform at an exceptional level because they like their boss or coach? Of course and those bosses/coaches that endear that kind of loyalty are the cream of the crop. Most just wander through life without specific plans and react to what is on front of them however its the boss/coaches JOB is to find that hot button that turns ordinary into something more.

    And with that I am preparing to motivate myself for my yearly trip to see me son, his wife and my grand-daughter with a side trip to Vegas to immerse myself in gambling, point spreads, and since I don't drink too much coffee. Hopefully the Browns will be 3-3 when I return though I fear it will be more like 1-5. Keep the faith all.

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    Josh's QBR is 98.2
    Johnny's QBR is 99.8

    Johnny swings for homeruns.
    McCown prefers sustained drives.

    They're just different. So far one is not better than the other on the field this year. 2 cents.

    As bad as our defense is, it's probably better to have McCown out there eating clock.

    I'm really hoping we're not forced to move on from Pett, as if he gets canned, there isn't a decent coach out there who will touch us with a 10-foot pole.

    ---

    And speaking of coaching, Harbaugh has Michigan leading the NCAA in 3-&-outs. #CoachingMatters
    Last edited by OconRecon; 10-06-2015 at 01:32 PM.
    2017 Draft: Garrett, Peppers, Njoku, Kizer, Ogunjobi, Collins (via trade of 103), Wilson, Johnson, Brantley, Gonzalez, Dayes
    2018 EXTRA Draft picks: a 1st (Texans), two in 2nd (Eagles & Texans), a 4th (Panthers/A.Lee), a 5th (Chiefs/Cam) - 12 total
    2019 EXTRA picks: 7th rnd (w/ Coates)
    Philly trade result: C. Coleman, Peppers, Kizer, Kessler, R. Louis, S. Coleman, Drango, Kindred, Payton, 2018 1st rndr (Texans) & 2018 2nd rndr (Eagles)

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    Here. I figure everyone can use a good laugh in the midst of another week coming off a tough loss.

    http://www.waitingfornextyear.com/20...browns-week-4/

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    Quote Originally Posted by BruceWayne View Post
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    How can you take it off the table? Why do you want to? Playing a 36 year old journeyman QB while on your way to a 4 or 5 win season with your first round, second year QB as a backup is ripe for debate.
    You answered your own question Bruce. There's literally no way to have a constructive dialogue on Pettine without segregating it into two parts: Manziel and everything else. Unless you are saying they can't be separated? I would categorically disagree with that premise.

    The handling of Manziel has its own dedicated thread (basically) here. The question of Pettine's role in the defense playing poorly, substitutions not occurring smoothly (i.e., too many/too few players), scheming, practice habits (too soft some have said) are good topics to discuss but only if it doesn't spiral into another "Well, I think Pettine sucks because he isn't starting Manziel".

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    Quote Originally Posted by BruceWayne View Post
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    Sounds great Greythan.
    Wow, nice closing. I've been generally supportive of Pettine so far. That's due, in large part, to my ridiculous desire for continuity.

    I've never stated or even intimated Pettine's above reproach. I do feel strongly that a dialogue on Pettine that keeps spiraling back to Manziel is pointless as there is no middle ground at all for those who think Manziel should be starting. Its a closed loop for folks in that camp: there's literally no allowance for the possibility that not starting Manziel last year and so far this year as been a good thing. Hence, there's no real way to discuss the issue.

    Now, items you mentioned like buddy systems, Whitner/vet FA's, etc could be discussed.

    I'll follow along here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brutalfacts View Post
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    I am of the opinion that people by nature ARE NOT self motivated, the greats in any field are the ones that can motivate. People are motivated by money, or fear, or fame, or love, or a bunch of other things, its rare you find someone that rolls out of bed in the morning determined to execute their day at a high level just because.
    I couldn't disagree with this more. This actually seems a rather outlandish thing to say especially with the inference here being that an NFL head coach is solely responsible for motivating all 53 players. If what you are saying is that there is some underlying motivation (money, fear, love, etc.) for everyone; that I could agree with. But if your point is that people aren't motivated unless there's a 3rd party human being to push them along... I couldn't disagree more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BruceWayne View Post
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    How can you take it off the table? Why do you want to? Playing a 36 year old journeyman QB while on your way to a 4 or 5 win season with your first round, second year QB as a backup is ripe for debate.
    I am not sure we are looking at 4 or 5 wins. If we continue on the path we are on, I think I see one more, possibly two. I don't know the total on a different path, but I would be willing to chance it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    You answered your own question Bruce. There's literally no way to have a constructive dialogue on Pettine without segregating it into two parts: Manziel and everything else. Unless you are saying they can't be separated? I would categorically disagree with that premise.

    The handling of Manziel has its own dedicated thread (basically) here. The question of Pettine's role in the defense playing poorly, substitutions not occurring smoothly (i.e., too many/too few players), scheming, practice habits (too soft some have said) are good topics to discuss but only if it doesn't spiral into another "Well, I think Pettine sucks because he isn't starting Manziel".
    It is a dumb debate in my opinion, with regards to who should be starting, particularly with the arguments circling around who's fault it is that he is NOT starting.

    Our offense is working, which is a surprise to say. McCown has played well, he is taking his role seriously, and working his butt off, he has earned his chance to lead this franchise under center for now. Instead of throwing in our inexperienced QB2 "to see what he has" we are getting good play from our veteran, who prepares well, who fights hard, who knows more of the playbook, and somehow this is supposed to be bad for Johnny and the franchise?

    It's not about one guy, but unfortunately the history of our franchise since the return is plenty stormy around the whoever that one guy is, because we haven't had that one guy. The funniest part about all of it to me is the focus when we are not playing well as a team. Where the focus of our frustration with losing right now should be, falls on the defensive side of the ball. Where they are looking simply abysmal.

    Fuck Johnny! I'm not saying I hate him or anything like that but, he shares the blame for where he is on the depth chart. Josh McCown was brought in to do what he is doing, and now people want to bury him in favor of "what ifs" 4 weeks in, when our defense can't stop a runny nose.

    Absurd. I seriously can't believe some of the discussion on here.
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