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Thread: You're gonna eat lightnin' and you're gonna crap MEGATHREADS! (QB 29)

  1. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    You answered your own question Bruce. There's literally no way to have a constructive dialogue on Pettine without segregating it into two parts: Manziel and everything else. Unless you are saying they can't be separated? I would categorically disagree with that premise.

    The handling of Manziel has its own dedicated thread (basically) here. The question of Pettine's role in the defense playing poorly, substitutions not occurring smoothly (i.e., too many/too few players), scheming, practice habits (too soft some have said) are good topics to discuss but only if it doesn't spiral into another "Well, I think Pettine sucks because he isn't starting Manziel".
    A major part of the job as head coach of a team is making decisions for the benefit of the team. Are you saying that the debate about Pettine may include some of this decisions but not all? Seems to me that all of his decisions as well as the direction he provides to the team should all be fair game in the debate. Some decisions are more important than other decisions, of course, and the direction he provides in some respects is more important than in other respects. And as with all things, the whole is generally greater than the collected parts. But it seems absurd to me to arbitrarily remove certain parts as being off limits.

    How do you justify that, Grey?
    Last edited by Brownsfan; 10-06-2015 at 02:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    Wow, nice closing. I've been generally supportive of Pettine so far. That's due, in large part, to my ridiculous desire for continuity.

    I've never stated or even intimated Pettine's above reproach. I do feel strongly that a dialogue on Pettine that keeps spiraling back to Manziel is pointless as there is no middle ground at all for those who think Manziel should be starting. Its a closed loop for folks in that camp: there's literally no allowance for the possibility that not starting Manziel last year and so far this year as been a good thing. Hence, there's no real way to discuss the issue.

    Now, items you mentioned like buddy systems, Whitner/vet FA's, etc could be discussed.

    I'll follow along here.
    Some things are more important than other things, but collectively they make a whole. Any part of the whole should be fair to discuss even if it is inconvenient to an argument. Personally, there is little if anything about Pettine that gives me confidence for the future. The think that I dislike the most is his gloom and doom. Yes, I know he is 1-3 and it is fair for him and the team to own it, but at the same time, the sun will come up tomorrow and to indulge in self pity and fail to get off the dime and try something different is, in my view, counterproductive. I would appreciate a little bit of a try something chin up attitude. Do something even if it is wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    I couldn't disagree with this more. This actually seems a rather outlandish thing to say especially with the inference here being that an NFL head coach is solely responsible for motivating all 53 players. If what you are saying is that there is some underlying motivation (money, fear, love, etc.) for everyone; that I could agree with. But if your point is that people aren't motivated unless there's a 3rd party human being to push them along... I couldn't disagree more.
    Not solely. But the head coach has a major role in the performance of a team and part of that is his ability to motivate people to put the team's interests ahead of personal interests. To do that, the head coach must provide leadership in directing the team in one direction as opposed to 53 directions. The only person in a position to do that is the head coach.

    I have come to the opinion that Pettine does not have the ability to do that mainly because he is, himself, more interested in self than team.
    Last edited by Brownsfan; 10-06-2015 at 02:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldDawgCliff View Post
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    A major part of the job as head coach of a team is making decisions for the benefit of the team. Are you say that the debate about Pettine may include some of this decisions but not all? Seems to me that all of his decisions as well as the direction he provides to the team should all be fair game in the debate. Some decisions are more important than other decisions, of course, and the direction he provides in some respects is more important than in other respects. And as with all things, the whole is generally greater than the collected parts. But it seems absurd to me to arbitrarily remove certain parts as being off limits.

    How do you justify that, Grey?
    Very well written.

    When one watches the Browns and then watches other teams, it's kinda like watching teams coming from different universes. Often other teams play with a ferocity, especially on defense, we rarely see from the Browns. Browns players so frequently seem to be too slow, too soft and out of position on defense. Shockingly, the problems one saw with the defense last year are still there, unfixed, despite improvements, allegedly, in the quality of the personnel.

    Strategically, Browns seem to be at a Central Bucks High School pace instead of moving at the advanced light speed level of the NFL. Our offensive line, overall, is poor at both run blocking and pass blocking, weaknesses exposed to some extent even by playing a weak schedule the past three weeks, with most of the formidable parts yet to come.

    It's a team that simply does not look prepared to play much of the time, in terms of where to be on the field and generally exhibits lack of motivation and energy which should be provided by the coaching staff and team leaders. It seems a lot of the so called team leaders expend most of their energy talking to the media and be not as fired up on Sundays with their teammates on game day!

    The really sad part is that I could have said the same things about nearly every other Browns team in the past decade and a half!

    Decisions, decisions, decisions -- lots of bad decisions by the coaching staff and the GM, both of whom seem very poor at understanding what makes up a good player and clueless about the kinds of strategies that work in the modern NFL.

    Pulling your best pass rusher, Kruger, back from the line of scrimmage to handle other duties? Ridiculous. Letting Sheard get away, who is playing extremely well for the Patriots. Knowing you are weak on the edges and then drafting an OLB, Orchard, who is a great pass rusher but not so hot against the run, while passing on a kid from Kentucky, Dupree, we could have had at #19 in the first round who is playing well for the Steelers.

    Berea -- the mixing bowl of bad ingredients used in failed recipes that create disastrous outcomes. It never changes. And it's as bad as ever!
    Last edited by AttackOffense; 10-06-2015 at 02:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MalcolmBrown View Post
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    It is a dumb debate in my opinion, with regards to who should be starting, particularly with the arguments circling around who's fault it is that he is NOT starting.

    Our offense is working, which is a surprise to say. McCown has played well, he is taking his role seriously, and working his butt off, he has earned his chance to lead this franchise under center for now. Instead of throwing in our inexperienced QB2 "to see what he has" we are getting good play from our veteran, who prepares well, who fights hard, who knows more of the playbook, and somehow this is supposed to be bad for Johnny and the franchise?

    It's not about one guy, but unfortunately the history of our franchise since the return is plenty stormy around the whoever that one guy is, because we haven't had that one guy. The funniest part about all of it to me is the focus when we are not playing well as a team. Where the focus of our frustration with losing right now should be, falls on the defensive side of the ball. Where they are looking simply abysmal.

    Fuck Johnny! I'm not saying I hate him or anything like that but, he shares the blame for where he is on the depth chart. Josh McCown was brought in to do what he is doing, and now people want to bury him in favor of "what ifs" 4 weeks in, when our defense can't stop a runny nose.

    Absurd. I seriously can't believe some of the discussion on here.
    And our record is 1-3 so far with the Ravens and the Broncos coming up. Think we are likely to win the next two and put ourselves back into the position of having a chance at the playoffs. I think not. I think we will likely lose both.

    Unless you think we are likely to beat either the Ravens or the Broncos, I am not sure you are doing the veterans a favor by staying with McCown. What chance do we have to make the playoffs anyway?

    Actually, in my opinion, this would be the opportune time to switch to Manziel while McCown is on a high note. Pettine would be in a position to explain that while McCown has played great, in this division, we need to start building for the future and it is time for McCown to take on his role of mentor to enhance the chances of Manziel succeeding. Admit for once that this year is a rebuilding year. There is no need to wait until McCown fails to make the change.

    Personally, I think it is the only way Pettine has a chance of saving his job.
    Last edited by Brownsfan; 10-06-2015 at 02:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldDawgCliff View Post
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    A major part of the job as head coach of a team is making decisions for the benefit of the team. Are you say that the debate about Pettine may include some of this decisions but not all? Seems to me that all of his decisions as well as the direction he provides to the team should all be fair game in the debate. Some decisions are more important than other decisions, of course, and the direction he provides in some respects is more important than in other respects. And as with all things, the whole is generally greater than the collected parts. But it seems absurd to me to arbitrarily remove certain parts as being off limits.

    How do you justify that, Grey?
    Its nuanced Cliff, as I know you are aware. Based on the history of our dialogue here, a discussion of Pettine's work thus far that was inclusive of Manziel's handling would devolve into the next Megathread being started. I'm happy to try it, I just doubt our ability to stay balanced.

    So, I've proposed a bifurcated approach. Seems rational to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldDawgCliff View Post
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    And our record is 1-3 so far with the Ravens and the Broncos coming up. Think we are likely to win the next two and put ourselves back into the position of having a chance at the playoffs. I think not. I think we will likely lose both.

    Unless you think we are likely to beat either the Ravens or the Broncos, I am not sure you are doing the veterans a favor by staying with McCown. What chance do we have to make the playoffs anyway?

    Actually, in my opinion, this would be the opportune time to switch to Manziel while McCown is on a high note. Pettine would be in a position to explain that while McCown has played great, in this division, we need to start building for the future and it is time for McCown to take on his role of mentor to enhance the chances of Manziel succeeding. Admit for once that this year is a rebuilding year. There is no need to wait until McCown fails to make the change.

    Personally, I think it is the only way Pettine has a chance of saving his job.
    What I hear is, let's put our porous defense out there on the field more, because we want to see our unpolished product against the best teams in the league and think that's going to help the team play better as a whole. So far, if the defense doesn't make a change, the offense is going to lose its motivation as well, and then what are we looking at for Johnny if everybody around him thinks there is nothing to play for, he's probably going to get hurt. It's all hypothetical tho, right?
    _____________________________________
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    Its nuanced Cliff, as I know you are aware. Based on the history of our dialogue here, a discussion of Pettine's work thus far that was inclusive of Manziel's handling would devolve into the next Megathread being started. I'm happy to try it, I just doubt our ability to stay balanced.

    So, I've proposed a bifurcated approach. Seems rational to me.
    Well, first of all, this is the QB megathread. As I read it, you are saying that when discussing Pettine in the quarterback megathread, we are only allowed to include discussion of things other than his handling of quarterbacks.

    Look, Grey, I am perfectly willing to discuss Pettine's doom and gloom persona, his increasingly defensive press conferences, his poor clock handling, his unwise strategies and so forth on the QBmegathread, but when you say I can't talk about his handling of quarterbacks on the QBmegathread, I call a halt. You have simply gone too far with that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    We can talk about Pettine's performance as head coach. I think there's a lot to dissect there.

    The reason I'm cavalier about your approach, BS, is because all roads seem to inevitably lead to a Manziel-based point. (And you actually invoked the term "strawman"? Now that's funny.)

    If you are willing to put the back-up QB off the table, then we can have the discussion. That wouldn't be in this thread, however.
    Ignoring a 1st round qb when discussing the head coach is pretty selective. Manziel is a huge part of pettines Browns resume.

    But sure, we can discuss Petrine outside of manziel...

    Hell, we can discuss him strictly as it relates to defense (his 'expertise')

    What should the thread be called?
    Maybe...

    MegaYards for Opponents?

    But ultimately my problem with pet is he's trying to win football games in the NFL like he's Alabama in 1984 playing Savannah Southern Tech State.

    And he's not a leader. At all. Not even close.
    He's a walking binder filled with outdated coaching and interpersonal relationship philosophies inspired by World War 2 and John Wayne movies.

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    That's great we're at the screw Johnny, buy McCown Jerseys on this forum. Serious pathology on here and I'm not joking. Yet, some still wonder why this season looks bleak and then next year and on and on.

    I predict 5-6 wins this year. Johnny should have good chemistry on the scout team. After McCown chokes from being pressured and looks terrible, Pettine will insert Manziel against stronger teams with a bunch of browns who will have already packed it in.

    Then the predictable on this forum will opine that Johnny just didn't look like the QBOTF and so on.

    Someone give me their best argument for starting McCown and winning a max of 6 games? Tampa Bay, Tennessee, Oakland and Jacksonville don't seem to understand Pettine's wisdom.

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    I think Johnny could hit Duke Johnson on those line of scrimmage check downs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MalcolmBrown View Post
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    What I hear is, let's put our porous defense out there on the field more, because we want to see our unpolished product against the best teams in the league and think that's going to help the team play better as a whole. So far, if the defense doesn't make a change, the offense is going to lose its motivation as well, and then what are we looking at for Johnny if everybody around him thinks there is nothing to play for, he's probably going to get hurt. It's all hypothetical tho, right?
    As the Browns begin to play more teams with better defenses I think more of McCown's weaknesses will be exposed and the debate will intensify as to whom is the better QB for the Browns. Not part of the debate yet, but I think will be there in the end, is Austin Davis, a pretty fair country QB.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MalcolmBrown View Post
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    What I hear is, let's put our porous defense out there on the field more, because we want to see our unpolished product against the best teams in the league and think that's going to help the team play better as a whole. So far, if the defense doesn't make a change, the offense is going to lose its motivation as well, and then what are we looking at for Johnny if everybody around him thinks there is nothing to play for, he's probably going to get hurt. It's all hypothetical tho, right?
    I think the biggest motivator is a chance to win. I am not convinced that our porous defense is due to a lack of talent. Seems to me that they played pretty good when our unpolished product was under center. However, I am going to veer off 180 here.

    Motivation is a strange animal and that includes coaches. In general, coaches like to see plays that are choreographed. Few coaches like adlibbing by his quarterback. I give the example of Mike Gundy the Oklahoma State coach and his talented young quarterback, Mason Rudolph.

    In our recent game with Texas, at one point, Rudolph made like Manziel. In the words of the beat writer for the Oklahoman:

    Facing third-and-eight on the Texas 17-yard line, Rudolph stepped into the pocket, shed a sack and spun around. He looped back to the right side of the line of scrimmage, shedding another sack, before stopping and floating a ball into the end zone. Receiver Brandon Sheperd grabbed the jump ball for a touchdown.
    Gundy didn't like it. In his Monday press conference he said: "He tried to do too much and he ended up making a play. Sometimes that works for you. It's hard to coach, because when he comes off the field it's hard to say, 'Hey, don't do that.' Because you got a touchdown. The ball should have been in a different location earlier in the play or he wouldn't have been in that situation. Then you do it later a couple times and it doesn't work to your advantage. So there's some give and take there. You want most of what you do on offense to be orchestrated. It doesn't always work that way."

    The difference between Pettine and Gundy is that Gundy didn't bench his young talent. Instead, he sent a message to his young quarterback via the press conference and kept building for the future.

    Regarding the Titan game and the Manziel touchdown pass, there was irony in DeFilippo's statement: "Coaching is overrated." However, when Pettine repeated it in his press conference, he seemed to indicate approval and then subsequently benched his young quarterback. Basically, he did just the opposite of what he should have done. There is no doubt in my mind that the reason Pettine benched Manziel was that play. I am of the firm opinion that if Manziel had taken a sack instead, he would have started the next game.

    And that is the main reason that Pettine needs to be replaced. He is too emotional to see the big picture; he is too emotional to be a successful head coach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brownsdownunder View Post
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    I think this speaks volumes. You haven't seen the game, but it's all Pettine's fault.

    Funnily enough, the people "defending" Pettine, like myself, seem significantly more interested in the players actually playing well than seeing the coach blamed for everything that's going to result in a blown up roster... because the fucking players aren't playing well.

    I'm sick of watching guys not get off blocks only for the fucking coach to be blamed because we didn't get a free runner every play.
    I'm sick of bums like Dwayne Bowe ruining this team but the coach being blamed because he can't get water from that stone.
    I'm sick of corners getting burned but the coaching being blamed even though it's a press man scheme and they've gotta be able to hold their own. It's not a bad scheme, it's bad play, and the players need to be held accountable for once in this team's history.
    I'm sick of this team taking dumbass penalties but it's the coaches fault, like he didn't think to tell them "Don't jump offside."
    I'm sick of this team missing tackles but the coach being blamed because apparently he didn't team them that, I don't know, you have to make tackles. Fuck it, Pettine, waste the next month teaching basic tackling techniques that no other team has to teach because we're the fucking Browns and it's all your fault when players don't tackle, how were they to know!
    I'm sick of half-heated performances being the "coaches responsibility" because apparently these players don't need to give a fuck on their own.

    What makes Pettine a great coach? What makes these players so damn good? Please point out to me all the guys playing at an all-pro level but are being fucked because of the scheme.

    Why do the people who point out the Manziel apologists 'defend' Pettine? Might be because every Manziel apologist seeks every excuse to blame Pettine for the dumbest shit on the weekly that has to be corrected.
    Isn't it the coaches job to have the players playing good? All the blame shouldn't be put on Pettine. It's everyone's fault at this point but why can't the coach be criticized? All the penalties, that's coaching. Offsides on a FG that was missed, that's coaching. You act as if these guys aren't trying at all and I don't see that. Some of them want to win.

    Players have made mistakes and for sure as shit the coaches have to. Everyone needs to take responsibility.


    Quote Originally Posted by brownsdownunder View Post
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    How is Johnny the best thing for the Cleveland Browns?
    At some point we need to admit we aren't a playoff team. So wouldn't getting better for the future be the best for the Browns? Not trying to get pointless wins this season?

    This season feels like it's bulit on a half sturdy foundation (if that makes sense). Yes there are some pieces to win now, but it looks as if we a short quite a bit to make any real damage. So do we try to win now (this year, next) or do we try to get rid of the excess fat and veterans, bring in young guys and get a real foundation for down the road (3-5 years).

    As I look at it, things almost feel hopeless. We need a coach that actually gets the time to get a winner here (4+ years). I fully believe this, but I also believe Pet isn't out guy or a capeable HC. But I feel if we fire him after this season that could make things worse here. So you can see my feeling of hopelessness in that there seems to be no viable plan right now for a winning future.



    I apologize if I'm too doom and gloom I'm just really defeated at this point. Just feels like we are sooooooo far away from a respectable product on the field. Losing 8 of the last 9 will do that to a man.

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    Cliff, I didn't start a broader dialogue about Pettine's shortcomings as a head coach in this thread. Others did.

    The context of my comments had literally nothing to do with the thread in which is was posted as a result. I guess we can be obtuse about it if we want.

    I also didn't tell you or anyone else what they can or can not discuss. I was suggesting a method for discourse. Clearly, it didn't resonate. I'm good. Continue the discussion...

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    Quote Originally Posted by BruceWayne View Post
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    That's great we're at the screw Johnny, buy McCown Jerseys on this forum. Serious pathology on here and I'm not joking. Yet, some still wonder why this season looks bleak and then next year and on and on.

    I predict 5-6 wins this year. Johnny should have good chemistry on the scout team. After McCown chokes from being pressured and looks terrible, Pettine will insert Manziel against stronger teams with a bunch of browns who will have already packed it in.

    Then the predictable on this forum will opine that Johnny just didn't look like the QBOTF and so on.

    Someone give me their best argument for starting McCown and winning a max of 6 games? Tampa Bay, Tennessee, Oakland and Jacksonville don't seem to understand Pettine's wisdom.
    I actually understand what you're saying and have a part of me that wants to see a lot of Manziel. There's also a pretty massive volume of current and former NFL coaches, front office types, and players who consistently say that the only objective from week to week is to win the next game. I'm sure there's some nuance to that, but you'd have to be working very hard to have not heard this sentiment before.

    So, to state that the Browns are indisputably stupid for playing McCown seems extreme. While you are accusing everyone of not seeing it exactly in your way as pathological, you might want to glance in the mirror.

    I'm not excited about McCown beyond the next game that he may play in. That would simply be my excitement every week at the possibility of a Browns win. There's no long-term excitement for me regarding McCown... I get that. Manziel would fill both if he started as he did for me against TN. Maybe we win and maybe this is our long term answer. However, the fact that it isn't Johnny's team yet doesn't have me calling for heads. I don't get that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MalcolmBrown View Post
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    What I hear is, let's put our porous defense out there on the field more, because we want to see our unpolished product against the best teams in the league and think that's going to help the team play better as a whole. So far, if the defense doesn't make a change, the offense is going to lose its motivation as well, and then what are we looking at for Johnny if everybody around him thinks there is nothing to play for, he's probably going to get hurt. It's all hypothetical tho, right?
    Great point MB. I would like to see JM start because I want to know if he is our franchise QB. However, what you said is exactly right. I still believe that he starts again, with our porous o line, McCown is bound to get hurt, probably sooner than later. I just wish people would be more patient about him starting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldDawgCliff View Post
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    I think the biggest motivator is a chance to win. I am not convinced that our porous defense is due to a lack of talent. Seems to me that they played pretty good when our unpolished product was under center. However, I am going to veer off 180 here.

    Motivation is a strange animal and that includes coaches. In general, coaches like to see plays that are choreographed. Few coaches like adlibbing by his quarterback. I give the example of Mike Gundy the Oklahoma State coach and his talented young quarterback, Mason Rudolph.

    In our recent game with Texas, at one point, Rudolph made like Manziel. In the words of the beat writer for the Oklahoman:



    Gundy didn't like it. In his Monday press conference he said: "He tried to do too much and he ended up making a play. Sometimes that works for you. It's hard to coach, because when he comes off the field it's hard to say, 'Hey, don't do that.' Because you got a touchdown. The ball should have been in a different location earlier in the play or he wouldn't have been in that situation. Then you do it later a couple times and it doesn't work to your advantage. So there's some give and take there. You want most of what you do on offense to be orchestrated. It doesn't always work that way."

    The difference between Pettine and Gundy is that Gundy didn't bench his young talent. Instead, he sent a message to his young quarterback via the press conference and kept building for the future.

    Regarding the Titan game and the Manziel touchdown pass, there was irony in DeFilippo's statement: "Coaching is overrated." However, when Pettine repeated it in his press conference, he seemed to indicate approval and then subsequently benched his young quarterback. Basically, he did just the opposite of what he should have done. There is no doubt in my mind that the reason Pettine benched Manziel was that play. I am of the firm opinion that if Manziel had taken a sack instead, he would have started the next game.

    And that is the main reason that Pettine needs to be replaced. He is too emotional to see the big picture; he is too emotional to be a successful head coach.

    You really waited to slip that in there so I had to read your whole post before you dropped that turd.

    #idonotsubscribe

    That's some really round about way of explaining a reason why you think Pettine doesn't like Manziel, aside from the fact that he just didn't start the next game, even though he salted away the Titans game with that last play, but overall, didn't do alot because he didn't give himself enough downs.

    I would venture to guess he benched Manziel because of this STARK difference:

    Tennessee Time of Possession 35:11 Cleveland Time of Possession 24:49
    _____________________________________
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    Cliff, I didn't start a broader dialogue about Pettine's shortcomings as a head coach in this thread. Others did.

    The context of my comments had literally nothing to do with the thread in which is was posted as a result. I guess we can be obtuse about it if we want.

    I also didn't tell you or anyone else what they can or can not discuss. I was suggesting a method for discourse. Clearly, it didn't resonate. I'm good. Continue the discussion...
    No worries. We apparently disagree on Pettine. Not sure that we really disagree much on Manziel bases on some of your messages, but I do not think Pettine can succeed as an NFL head coach in today's game. He might have done okay 40 years ago, but not now. And this is completely apart from any discussion of Manziel (although the situation with Manziel provides an example of Pettine's incompetence).

    There is no sense in my attempting to go into further detail since I fully acknowledge that I have no proof that you would accept. Nevertheless, I am no less certain of my conclusions, some of which follow:

    1. Manziel is more ready to start now than he will be a month from now after relative inactivity in the interim.
    2. McCown will tend to regress in the following weeks due mainly to age fatigue and losing.
    3. Considering his age and history, it is unlikely that McCown will finish the season in good health.
    4. Replacing McCown with Manziel now would allow McCown to exit on a high note.
    5. The exuberance of youth itself would tend to sustain Manziel and allow him to retain enthusiasm for the job even while losing.
    6. There is a better chance of keeping both of them healthy if Manziel is the starter and McCown is the backup.
    7. Starting Manziel would be useful in discovering if he is capable of being a high level quarterback and provide needed info for the next draft.

    Again, don't ask me to prove any of the above. As I stated above, I am fully aware that I would never be able to prove it to your satisfaction. But that does not mean that I am any less certain of any of the above seven points. Cheers,
    Last edited by Brownsfan; 10-06-2015 at 09:19 PM.

  20. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by MalcolmBrown View Post
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    You really waited to slip that in there so I had to read your whole post before you dropped that turd.

    #idonotsubscribe

    That's some really round about way of explaining a reason why you think Pettine doesn't like Manziel, aside from the fact that he just didn't start the next game, even though he salted away the Titans game with that last play, but overall, didn't do alot because he didn't give himself enough downs.

    I would venture to guess he benched Manziel because of this STARK difference:

    Tennessee Time of Possession 35:11 Cleveland Time of Possession 24:49

    _____________________________________
    Sorry, the time of possession difference in that game was a direct result of Pettine sitting on the lead. The Browns had something like 5 or 6 straight possessions of running on first and second down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldDawgCliff View Post
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    1. Manziel is more ready to start now than he will be a month from now after relative inactivity in the interim.
    2. McCown will tend to regress in the following weeks due mainly to age fatigue and losing.
    3. Considering his age and history, it is unlikely that McCown will finish the season in good health.
    4. Replacing McCown with Manziel now would allow McCown to exit on a high note.
    5. The exuberance of youth itself would tend to sustain Manziel and allow him to retain enthusiasm for the job even while losing.
    6. There is a better chance of keeping both of them healthy if Manziel is the starter and McCown is the backup.
    7. Starting Manziel would be useful in discovering if he is capable of being a high level quarterback and provide needed info for the next draft.
    Your caveat about proving is noted. I'll never cease to be amazed at how two different people of relative intelligence (I added the relative so as to not offend by including myself in the analogy!) can see things so differently.

    I think 1, 2, 3, and 6 are dubious at best and counter arguments can be somewhat easily rallied in opposition. 5 seems utterly defeatist (imagine trying to explain #5 to the other 52 players). 7 presumes there's a need by the professionals in order to inform the 2016 draft.

    4? Yes, I agree with that one.

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    5 can also drastically swing the other way by where with youth and immaturity, combined with losing, can quickly sucking that enthusiasm and drive/effort out of the player instead. Time and time again you in the Nfl where a losing environment, especially for a young QB, sucks the potential out of a player.

    1 is beyond dubious. Manziel or any your qb is going to get better with understanding of whay it takes to be an nfl qb with each passing day, regardless of if he is playing on Sundays. There is a long track record for players, including qbs who you could argue (and may will also say it benefited them) were better prepared by sitting a year or two (ask Rodgers if it benefit him). Based on what we do know last year was pretty much a lost year for jM, this year is pretty much what last year was to be.

    There are 10 other guys on that O who need to be growing and learning this offense. You don't slow them down so one guy can maybe grow or because fans want to know if that guy is the guy. If McCown is holding the O as a unit back that is a different story. Right now it would seem they are not at that juncture

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    Your caveat about proving is noted. I'll never cease to be amazed at how two different people of relative intelligence (I added the relative so as to not offend by including myself in the analogy!) can see things so differently.

    I think 1, 2, 3, and 6 are dubious at best and counter arguments can be somewhat easily rallied in opposition. 5 seems utterly defeatist (imagine trying to explain #5 to the other 52 players). 7 presumes there's a need by the professionals in order to inform the 2016 draft.

    4? Yes, I agree with that one.
    That is why I added the caveat. No sense in getting into a yes it is, no it isn't, prove it, no you prove it type argument. However, I can't just leave it alone. After all, this is a message board.

    I agree that there is no way to prove 1 and 6 either way. But as for 1, it seems reasonable to me that Manziel is likely to do better the shorter the period between actively practicing the offense. If he was to start next week, it would have been only two and a half weeks since he was last active in the Browns offense to a significant degree. Running the scout team is no doubt somewhat helpful, but mimicking an opposing team's offense for the benefit of the defense is not the same as getting reps in the Browns offense. As for 6, I think merely because of his youth, Manziel is more likely to stay healthy than McCown. You can say both points are dubious, but I am not sure what a legitimate counter-argument to either might be.

    You can call 5 defeatist, but, realistically, we are not likely to win very many games with either quarterback. We have already lost three games with McCown starting. Do you really think the Browns with either quarterbacks are likely to beat the Ravens or the Broncos? How about the Cardinals, Bengals or Steelers. The sample size is small, but, so far, Manziel was more successful in his one start than McCown was in his three starts.

    As for 7, most people including professionals would agree that the best way to evaluate a quarterback is on the field in multiple games. And, yes, there is a need to know whether our greater need is a quarterback or a wide receiver.

    Regarding 2 and 3, you called those dubious also, and perhaps they are for now, but it seems likely that we will be able to observe how well McCown performs as the season goes on depending on what happens. Assuming McCown remains in the role of starter for more than half the season, we will see if he improves or regresses as the season goes on.

    And backing up to 1, suppose Manziel takes over in the 9th or 10th game; it will be interesting to see if he performs as well in the 9th or 10th game as he did in the Titan game--or if by then he has lost his edge possibly due to his reps being limited mainly to mental reps. My sense is that mental reps can help for a while, but that there is a great deal of difference between physical reps and mental reps with physical reps being much more conducive to getting better. (Okay, I admit that it won't necessarily prove anything, but it would tend to give at least an indication, wouldn't you say.) And, again, scout team reps probably won't help much.
    Last edited by Brownsfan; 10-07-2015 at 12:53 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Masters View Post
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    5 can also drastically swing the other way by where with youth and immaturity, combined with losing, can quickly sucking that enthusiasm and drive/effort out of the player instead. Time and time again you in the Nfl where a losing environment, especially for a young QB, sucks the potential out of a player.

    1 is beyond dubious. Manziel or any your qb is going to get better with understanding of whay it takes to be an nfl qb with each passing day, regardless of if he is playing on Sundays. There is a long track record for players, including qbs who you could argue (and may will also say it benefited them) were better prepared by sitting a year or two (ask Rodgers if it benefit him). Based on what we do know last year was pretty much a lost year for jM, this year is pretty much what last year was to be.

    There are 10 other guys on that O who need to be growing and learning this offense. You don't slow them down so one guy can maybe grow or because fans want to know if that guy is the guy. If McCown is holding the O as a unit back that is a different story. Right now it would seem they are not at that juncture
    I would first mention that Rodgers did not start a game mid-season after having run the scout team for a month or two. The Packers committed to Rodgers from the start by refusing to resign Brett Favre. And they did not bring in some old vet for him to compete with. They specifically committed to Aaron Rodgers from the start. They didn't say to him, that is was up to him to compete and win the job. They committed. They did it right.

    Now if the Browns plan was to try to win a championship with an aging HOF quarterback this year and then commit to Manziel next year, that would be fine with me. But McCown does not resemble an aging HOF quarterback and making the playoffs this year is an obvious exercise in futility.

    The major part that I object to specifically is that Pettine has said that Manziel will play later this year. Well, I think that if he is going to play this year, he needs to play while the offense is still relatively fresh in his mind and he isn't quite so distant from actual and significant practice reps in the Browns offense. Otherwise, they are not being fair to either the kid or the team.

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