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Thread: You're gonna eat lightnin' and you're gonna crap MEGATHREADS! (QB 29)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangelo930 View Post
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    Any predictions on whether or not Manziel is still a Cleveland Brown for game 1 of next season? My guess is he'll be gone, unfortunately.
    He's going to be a brown unless he plays substantial time and looks absolutely horrible.

    No one has the balls to let him go as a unknown-Including those who don't believe in him.

  2. #98
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    brownsdownunder is offline Fuck Cancer! R.I.P Sean Webb I am a Golden God!!
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    Johnny is gone because Pettine is gone. Johnny is polarizing and unproven among a league of coaches who always want to bring in 'their own' guy. Even if Johnny does, against unfathomable odds, make it to the point where a new coach will anoint him and no look for anyone else, he's going to be on the world's shortest leash because we all know new coaches immediately blame the old regime's players if things don't go well.

    At this stage, the Browns script is written until 2017, and it's a fucking shitty script once again.

    2015 seasons end - Pettine is fired, new coach fires all other coaches with the likely exception of Tabor.
    2016 draft - new coach drafts QB, probably a guy we reach on because we won too many games to such our way to the big dog, Johnny is shown the door and his development is wasted.
    2016 - Rebuilding mode, with a rookie quarterback. Fun.
    2017 - One year into rebuilding, the team better be winning or the coach will be fired and we'll repeat this process again.

    I can't fucking stand it.

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    Brian Hoyer was on the Browns before pettine, Johnny wasn't.

    So maybe you hire a coach that wants to embrace Johnny.

    Because you have Johnny.

    Maybe you hire a coach that wants to be innovative and challenge NFL norms.

    Because trying to be like everyone else isn't working.

    Maybe you hire a college coach that has job security in the sense that if he fails, he still has a good gig in college to fall back on.

    So he's willing to take risk.

    Like a chip jelly type.

    Because maybe you want to provide a entertaining product/win, lose or blow.
    Last edited by BoatShoes; 10-07-2015 at 04:21 AM.

  4. #100
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    brownsdownunder is offline Fuck Cancer! R.I.P Sean Webb I am a Golden God!!
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    Hoyer was only Pettine's guy because Johnny didn't beat him out. McCown is only Pettine's guy because Johnny didn't beat him out. Again, he's not sitting on the bench for any old reason. Two different OC's have strongly agreed.

    But, again, this feels like ignoring the inevitable. If I'd said on the day we drafted Johnny - "I've seen the future. Johnny will be picked today after a trade with Philly for #22. We'll drop back from the first pick and take Justin Gilbert. However, Johnny is going to spend the next two years developing. At the end of the first year, the guy is going to check into rehab (not drug related, by all accounts) and get himself right. Year two will be his natural development, but he'll be focused and dedicated" - nobody would really care. Most people have reserved themselves to the fact the kid might need development anyway and it wasn't seen as a big deal, especially when Hoyer had played well in 2013 so the cupboard wasn't empty.

    I don't know why that plan going ahead is magically not embracing Johnny, especially when the defense sucks worse than it did last year when people said it was irresponsible to start Johnny the week after saying Johnny needed to be started.

    And I'd rather not get a Chip Kelly. His offense was fun until teams figured it out. Now they can't win in spite of having an incredibly talented roster. I've seen people on twitter post in-depth analysis of Kelly's system, completely covering how to stop it, just for the heck of it.

    Maybe we just improve the roster and try get better players.

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    Yeah, call me crazy but I'm on the train of getting better players, possibly better NFL coaches, and just playing better football. I think one of the ways to optimize our chances of doing these things is continuity. Continuity is just hard. As everyone who's not liking Pettine points out: Continuity for continuity's sake is a plan for failure. I agree. I'm just not there yet on Pettine and absolutely not there from the "hasn't played Manziel" angle.

    Hiring coaches who want to share ice cream sundaes with the back-up QB and OC's with crackpot, NCAA D2 gimmick schemes would just push Haslam to officially change the name from "Browns" to "Clowns".

    Again, I think people just like to say shit.

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    You guys are right, let's stick with the process--it's clearly working; apologies for suggesting we try something different.

    Run the ball!
    Play good defense!

    Hire Mike Pettines.

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    Well if we could do either of those things, it might work for us :P Right now we are pretty awful in every phase of the game except for, seemingly, special teams...
    BROWNS 2017: ANALYTICS, IT'S NOT JUST SOMETHING YOU TRY IN THE BEDROOM ANYMORE!

    "I just do not get worked up over games anymore. I realized some time ago there is no point in getting worked up over them. I have no control over the outcome, it has no impact on me personally, and I have little to no actual facts to work from on properly analyzing the results." - Masters

    "Don't try to make me feel dumb for my opinion. You can kiss my ass." - MalcolmBrown

    WOOF WOOF WOOF!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoatShoes View Post
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    You guys are right, let's stick with the process--it's clearly working; apologies for suggesting we try something different.

    Run the ball!
    Play good defense!

    Hire Mike Pettines.
    I don't know what this means (as usual). No one is suggesting we should only run the ball. Quite the contrary, the Browns have posted some impressive passing numbers through 4 weeks. Play good defense would seem a universal truth.

    Most successful NFL head coaches have come from the coordinator ranks including the DC track.

    We're not winning so there's that.

    To fix it, you are suggesting we hire a college coach and have him implement a non-traditional scheme?

    I'm listening.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoatShoes View Post
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    Brian Hoyer was on the Browns before pettine, Johnny wasn't.

    So maybe you hire a coach that wants to embrace Johnny.

    Because you have Johnny.

    Maybe you hire a coach that wants to be innovative and challenge NFL norms.

    Because trying to be like everyone else isn't working.

    Maybe you hire a college coach that has job security in the sense that if he fails, he still has a good gig in college to fall back on.

    So he's willing to take risk.

    Like a chip jelly type.

    Because maybe you want to provide a entertaining product/win, lose or blow.
    An excellent post in general. I would note one thing. Pettine was hired by the previous GM who was hawking Pettine as the Browns franchise quarterback. Pettine embraced Hoyer before Johnny was born.

    If Farmer was to hire a coach who is willing to embrace Manziel the way Pettine embraced Hoyer, it might work,
    Last edited by Brownsfan; 10-07-2015 at 01:18 PM.

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    I think Pettine HAS embraced Manziel. NOT starting him right now may very well be the BEST thing for him. He is still learning the playbook and how to read a defense. He is learning to stay in the pocket. He is learning ball protection. He has shown marked improvement since last year...and low and behold...Pettine was his HC over that period of time. Maybe Pettine is doing EXACTLY what he needs to do to have Manziel ready to 'tear up this league' in 2016.

    Maybe...
    Football is all about synergy. Replace a poor player with a great player and watch the surrounding players suddenly seem vastly improved. When you aren't covering for someone else, you can do YOUR JOB better.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    I don't know what this means (as usual). No one is suggesting we should only run the ball. Quite the contrary, the Browns have posted some impressive passing numbers through 4 weeks. Play good defense would seem a universal truth.

    Most successful NFL head coaches have come from the coordinator ranks including the DC track.

    We're not winning so there's that.

    To fix it, you are suggesting we hire a college coach and have him implement a non-traditional scheme?

    I'm listening.
    Grey, I think you need your sarcasm meter adjusted.

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    Maybe. While its up to others to determine, I consider myself reasonably intelligent. However, when trying to interpret BS's style of posting I find it largely beyond me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    Quite the contrary, the Browns have posted some impressive passing numbers through 4 weeks.
    I think (hope) Pettine is learning. In the Titan game, with the lead, Pettine sat on the ball. Without a stellar running game, that simply doesn't work. Perhaps it was his lack of confidence that JFF could stay away from interceptions/fumbles.

    But since that game, with McCown at QB, the Browns have embraced the short passing game as a substitute for a decent running game. And it's working pretty well -- at least against the Chargers and late in the game against the Raiders.

    The problem the Browns have right now is that their highly paid defense sucks balls. And Pettine's whole strategy of play good d, don't turn the ball over, and win games is a bust.

    It's hard to blame the losses on the offense and most certainly on McCown. Until the defense plays a whole lot better, the Browns are going to lose a lot. I don't have a solution for the D's woes.

    But if the D were playing better, the offense is good enough to win games, and probably better with McCown at QB than JFF.
    But as teams load the box and press cover the receivers, McCown has got to throw the ball down the field better, something JFF does really well. If JFF can master the short passing game and take his shots down the field accordingly, the Browns offense would be really good, even with the lack of playmakers (besides Benjamin).

    As much as I want to see JFF play and do well, I can understand where Pettine is coming from playing McCown. But if the defense doesn't get its shit together soon, he might as well throw JFF in there and see what happens.
    Last edited by Martin Eden; 10-07-2015 at 01:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brownsdownunder View Post
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    Hoyer was only Pettine's guy because Johnny didn't beat him out. McCown is only Pettine's guy because Johnny didn't beat him out. Again, he's not sitting on the bench for any old reason. Two different OC's have strongly agreed.

    But, again, this feels like ignoring the inevitable. If I'd said on the day we drafted Johnny - "I've seen the future. Johnny will be picked today after a trade with Philly for #22. We'll drop back from the first pick and take Justin Gilbert. However, Johnny is going to spend the next two years developing. At the end of the first year, the guy is going to check into rehab (not drug related, by all accounts) and get himself right. Year two will be his natural development, but he'll be focused and dedicated" - nobody would really care. Most people have reserved themselves to the fact the kid might need development anyway and it wasn't seen as a big deal, especially when Hoyer had played well in 2013 so the cupboard wasn't empty.

    I don't know why that plan going ahead is magically not embracing Johnny, especially when the defense sucks worse than it did last year when people said it was irresponsible to start Johnny the week after saying Johnny needed to be started.

    And I'd rather not get a Chip Kelly. His offense was fun until teams figured it out. Now they can't win in spite of having an incredibly talented roster. I've seen people on twitter post in-depth analysis of Kelly's system, completely covering how to stop it, just for the heck of it.

    Maybe we just improve the roster and try get better players.
    I think we already have good players on defense. They are just not playing well together for some reason. There doesn't see to be a common purpose, but how can anyone say we don't have talent on defense? But it is like a quartet in excellent voice singing out of time.

    The offense with McCown seems surprisingly good, but lacks the talent to be really good. The exception is the offensive line, who like the defense ought to be really good but seems not to have it together. We do need better players at the skill positions on offense. But the main problem seems to be with the parts of the team that ought to be great.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    I don't know what this means (as usual). No one is suggesting we should only run the ball. Quite the contrary, the Browns have posted some impressive passing numbers through 4 weeks. Play good defense would seem a universal truth.

    Most successful NFL head coaches have come from the coordinator ranks including the DC track.

    We're not winning so there's that.

    To fix it, you are suggesting we hire a college coach and have him implement a non-traditional scheme?

    I'm listening.
    Most coaching failures have come from the coordinator ranks as well.

    The reason I suggest hiring a college coach is based on risk/reward and the market.

    Having a coach who has the career capital to take risk is essential for us since we don't have a upper half tier roster.

    Two types of coaches have that:
    1. A established NFL head coach. Gruden types.
    2. Successful college coaches-since they can always go back.

    Given we probably can't get #1, I'd be willing to entertain #2.

    The game is innovated from the bottom. College coaches study high school, pro coaches often study college.

    Personally I think the NFL and the game of football in general is ready for a moneyball type of revolution.

    Ultimately it comes down to... What do we have to lose? After over a decade of miserable failure... Why not start throwing wrenches?

    This lines up with my philosophy of playing Johnny. It's not that I strongly believe it will work... But rather I strongly believe norms won't... Because they haven't.

    we need an identity.
    Not the patriots model or the Seahawks model..

    We need to become our own model.

    And the NFL is one big groupthink fraternity.
    (And I'm tired of thank your, sir, may I have another)


    That's my opinion because I'm ok with the risk. 2-14 doesn't scare me. 8-8 for a decade does.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    Maybe. While its up to others to determine, I consider myself reasonably intelligent. However, when trying to interpret BS's style of posting I find it largely beyond me.
    Okay, maybe I am wrong, but I have tended to get along with Boat's posts much better after deciding to take much of what he says with a grain of salt.

    Boats can correct me if I am wrong, but I took what he said in that post as following the Einstein quote that "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result."



    Compare that with:

    You guys are right, let's stick with the process--it's clearly working; apologies for suggesting we try something different.

    Run the ball!
    Play good defense!

    Hire Mike Pettines.
    As Shep has mentioned more than a few times, this is a passing league. While that is not an absolute truth, and there are exceptions, it is true that a bad running game to protect your defense (keep it off the field) typically does not work very well in this league and to keep trying it when it has never worked for us in the past is, in my opinion, insanity.
    Last edited by Brownsfan; 10-07-2015 at 02:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Eden View Post
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    I think (hope) Pettine is learning. In the Titan game, with the lead, Pettine sat on the ball. Without a stellar running game, that simply doesn't work. Perhaps it was his lack of confidence that JFF could stay away from interceptions/fumbles.

    But since that game, with McCown at QB, the Browns have embraced the short passing game as a substitute for a decent running game. And it's working pretty well -- at least against the Chargers and late in the game against the Raiders.

    The problem the Browns have right now is that their highly paid defense sucks balls. And Pettine's whole strategy of play good d, don't turn the ball over, and win games is a bust.

    It's hard to blame the losses on the offense and most certainly on McCown. Until the defense plays a whole lot better, the Browns are going to lose a lot. I don't have a solution for the D's woes.

    But if the D were playing better, the offense is good enough to win games, and probably better with McCown at QB than JFF.
    But as teams load the box and press cover the receivers, McCown has got to throw the ball down the field better, something JFF does really well. If JFF can master the short passing game and take his shots down the field accordingly, the Browns offense would be really good, even with the lack of playmakers (besides Benjamin).

    As much as I want to see JFF play and do well, I can understand where Pettine is coming from playing McCown. But if the defense doesn't get its shit together soon, he might as well throw JFF in there and see what happens.
    Browns haven't had a lead since the Tennessee game. If they did, Pettine would be sitting on the ball game -- and we'd see three runs and a punt ... leading to a loss.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldDawgCliff View Post
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    I think we already have good players on defense. They are just not playing well together for some reason. There doesn't see to be a common purpose, but how can anyone say we don't have talent on defense? But it is like a quartet in excellent voice singing out of time.

    The offense with McCown seems surprisingly good, but lacks the talent to be really good. The exception is the offensive line, who like the defense ought to be really good but seems not to have it together. We do need better players at the skill positions on offense. But the main problem seems to be with the parts of the team that ought to be great.
    Thank you for reiterating the exact points I have made on this board for two years while enduring thousands of attack posts in doing so.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by BoatShoes View Post
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    Most coaching failures have come from the coordinator ranks as well.

    The reason I suggest hiring a college coach is based on risk/reward and the market.

    Having a coach who has the career capital to take risk is essential for us since we don't have a upper half tier roster.

    Two types of coaches have that:
    1. A established NFL head coach. Gruden types.
    2. Successful college coaches-since they can always go back.

    Given we probably can't get #1, I'd be willing to entertain #2.

    The game is innovated from the bottom. College coaches study high school, pro coaches often study college.

    Personally I think the NFL and the game of football in general is ready for a moneyball type of revolution.

    Ultimately it comes down to... What do we have to lose? After over a decade of miserable failure... Why not start throwing wrenches?

    This lines up with my philosophy of playing Johnny. It's not that I strongly believe it will work... But rather I strongly believe norms won't... Because they haven't.

    we need an identity.
    Not the patriots model or the Seahawks model..

    We need to become our own model.

    And the NFL is one big groupthink fraternity.
    (And I'm tired of thank your, sir, may I have another)


    That's my opinion because I'm ok with the risk. 2-14 doesn't scare me. 8-8 for a decade does.
    Hiring a college coach for this team at this team is not a good idea. We need an experienced NFL coach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Eden View Post
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    Sorry, the time of possession difference in that game was a direct result of Pettine sitting on the lead. The Browns had something like 5 or 6 straight possessions of running on first and second down.
    Also while the following is not applicable in that case since Manziel only attempted 15 passes in that game due to the overly conservative play calling, the TOP stat can be very deceiving.

    The reason is that a game involving short passes can often give a defense considerably more time on the sideline than a running attack. The reason is the difference between clock time and real time. In a running attack, the clock is always running whereas the clock stops between plays for incompleted passes.

    The clock time and the real time for a three and out involving three runs is essentially the same whereas there can be a significant difference between the clock time and real time for a three and out involving three incompleted passes. Thus even if the TOP appears decidedly one sided, the actual time on the sideline may not be significantly different for the two defenses, and in some cases the actual real time may actually be the opposite of what the TOP shows.

    It is true that short passing attacks lengthen the game in general, but the additional length of the game applies to both defenses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackOffense View Post
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    Browns haven't had a lead since the Tennessee game. If they did, Pettine would be sitting on the ball game -- and we'd see three runs and a punt ... leading to a loss.
    That is the way it looks to me. I think we desperately need another coach. As rash as it might appear those who love veterans, I would suggest elevating DeFilippo.

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    Browns #3 offensive line heading into week 5 (Ravens 29th)

    Pass blocking rank: 3rd
    Run blocking rank: 4th
    Penalties rank: 25th
    Stud: There will come a time when Joe Thomas (+13.0) doesn’t playing well. That time is not yet here.
    Dud: Coming back from injury, Alex Mack (-3.1) is the only Browns’ lineman with a negative grade.
    Summary: The O-line remains the strength of Cleveland’s offense, although it’s somewhat disappointing that Joel Bitonio hasn’t followed up his amazing rookie year with a strong start to his sophomore campaign.

    https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...tering-week-5/

    wasn't sure where to put this, hope this thread is okay.. they do protect the QB afterall
    Last edited by The Browns next QB; 10-07-2015 at 03:58 PM.

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    Hah....Mack having issues is kinda interesting. May make him rethink opting out of his contract.
    Football is all about synergy. Replace a poor player with a great player and watch the surrounding players suddenly seem vastly improved. When you aren't covering for someone else, you can do YOUR JOB better.



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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackOffense View Post
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    Thank you for reiterating the exact points I have made on this board for two years while enduring thousands of attack posts in doing so.
    They are not the exact same points for which you have been vilified. You have made an incredible number of points that make no sense at all to me.

    Hiring a college coach for this team at this team is not a good idea. We need an experienced NFL coach.
    We are not going to get an experienced NFL coach unless we want to hire the likes of Mangini, Shurmur or Chud.

    BTW, although many on this board would probably disagree, I would go for any one of those three over Pettine.

    Actually there are probably other experienced coaches with a losing record that might consent to come to Cleveland. But you are not going to get a head coach with winning record if that is what you are demanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Browns next QB View Post
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    Browns #3 offensive line heading into week 5 (Ravens 29th)

    Pass blocking rank: 3rd
    Run blocking rank: 4th
    Penalties rank: 25th
    Stud: There will come a time when Joe Thomas (+13.0) doesn’t playing well. That time is not yet here.
    Dud: Coming back from injury, Alex Mack (-3.1) is the only Browns’ lineman with a negative grade.
    Summary: The O-line remains the strength of Cleveland’s offense, although it’s somewhat disappointing that Joel Bitonio hasn’t followed up his amazing rookie year with a strong start to his sophomore campaign.

    https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...tering-week-5/

    wasn't sure where to put this, hope this thread is okay.. they do protect the QB afterall
    Stats don't always tell the story. I can see the Browns' o line is not playing well, regardless of where they are ranked.

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