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  1. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemosley01 View Post
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    You guys don't think that firing coaches after 1 season also has an effect. Dumping Mangini and then Chud was noticed around the league. No coach worth a damn would want to come to this team.

    Hell, I can't imagine why a QB would want to play here, or why anyone with a lick of talent would want to stay. McCown was super desperate to play to come to Cleveland, given he knew what he would face from the fans.

    The biggest problem with Cleveland is the whiny, entitled fans.
    I hear ya, but I think any fanbase would react in a somewhat similar way to the years of ineptitude from our ownership, management, and coaching groups.

    The biggest problem with Cleveland is that history. Its the primary reason I'm overly desperate for us to maintain continuity. (Or stated another way, why my personal "leash" for Farmer and Pettine is a long one.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by lemosley01 View Post
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    You guys don't think that firing coaches after 1 season also has an effect. Dumping Mangini and then Chud was noticed around the league. No coach worth a damn would want to come to this team.

    Hell, I can't imagine why a QB would want to play here, or why anyone with a lick of talent would want to stay. McCown was super desperate to play to come to Cleveland, given he knew what he would face from the fans.

    The biggest problem with Cleveland is the whiny, entitled fans.
    WELCOME BACK LEMO!!!!!

    And valid point...


    I keep saying we never should have fired Chud

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    Quote Originally Posted by lemosley01 View Post
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    You guys don't think that firing coaches after 1 season also has an effect. Dumping Mangini and then Chud was noticed around the league. No coach worth a damn would want to come to this team.

    Hell, I can't imagine why a QB would want to play here, or why anyone with a lick of talent would want to stay. McCown was super desperate to play to come to Cleveland, given he knew what he would face from the fans.

    The biggest problem with Cleveland is the whiny, entitled fans.
    I dunno Lemo, fans are critics everywhere, this is not a phenomenon exclusive to Browns/Cleveland fans. Though I agree no coach 'worth a damn' would want to come here (note, even though I hate him, we also ran Holmgren out of town and his time here arguably tarnished his reputation) I do think that it requires a certain someone with a dream big attitude to want to come here, and tough it out. We have high standards because we've been witnessing shit results for the better part of two decades now. Pettine is not the worst coach we've seen, and I don't think he's on the way out even though certain fans wish he was.

    Bottom line, we are the ones who cheer, we are the ones who pay for the product, if anyone is 'entitled' to criticize, it's fans. Just taking a counter point to you Lemo, wish you would stop by more often!
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemosley01 View Post
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    The biggest problem with Cleveland is the whiny, entitled fans.
    Yes. The biggest problem with Cleveland is the fans. NOT the ownership, front office, or history of losing since entering the league again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Browns next QB View Post
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    Yes. The biggest problem with Cleveland is the fans. NOT the ownership, front office, or history of losing since entering the league again.
    If anybody acts entitled, it's the entire Cleveland Browns organization who, year after year, acts like we the fans should just have faith and trust in everything they say. That we should trust that they are competent enough to fix this thing. I'm not picking on Mike Pettine/Ray Farmer. But how many times have we heard that this is not the "same old Browns" or not to "ask me for playoff tickets" *cough* Mike Holmgren *cough*

    Fans are fans everywhere, and no fanbase would be happy with their team being a joke year after year for the better part of two decades. I don't mean to pick on anybody on this board, but I hate when people attack the fanbase. Like that helps anybody. It doesn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lemosley01 View Post
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    You guys don't think that firing coaches after 1 season also has an effect. Dumping Mangini and then Chud was noticed around the league. No coach worth a damn would want to come to this team.

    Hell, I can't imagine why a QB would want to play here, or why anyone with a lick of talent would want to stay. McCown was super desperate to play to come to Cleveland, given he knew what he would face from the fans.

    The biggest problem with Cleveland is the whiny, entitled fans.

    Well if the owner (Haslam) Keeps pumping out a shitty product. "Like he has done" . The fans have every right to bitch.. Even the season ticket holder who "over pays" to begin with . If I'm investing my entertainment dollar every season and not atleast getting a positive emotional return on My investment.. Im gonna be salty..And then maybe focus those dollars elsewhere.

    But Haslam was more worried about cute scoreboards and ugly uniforms......And Snickers!
    Last edited by nickers; 10-07-2015 at 12:43 PM.
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    The fans have every right to be bitter. We pay for the utter shit on the field year in year out!
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    I don't get the Haslam hate.

    He took over a shit team, with a shit GM...did what paid NFL consultants told him to do and it blew up in his face. He then did what he needed to do, got rid of the shit GM and his HC...moved in Pettine and Farmer...and they had one of the best years since their return. They had a decent draft in 2014 (and if Manziel pans out it will be a historically GOOD draft), then followed it up with what looks to be another solid draft in 2015. The only gripe was lack of WR's...and that currently is not the issue costing us games.

    Some of you have mentioned getting a top notch NFL GM/HC to come to Cleveland is difficult, then complain when Haslam tags a couple of up and comers (both Farmer and Pettine were on other teams radars...Farmer heavily recruited) and they go through some growing pains while turning around a decade worth of shit.

    Pettine gets this rap of not being QB/WR friendly, but then you look at the stats and you see the Browns have gone from 20th to 9th in the NFL for passing yards since last year. You see that Manziel is actually WORTH DISCUSSING as an option at QB...and McCown is having stats similar to his Chicago year. Benji is legit, and Barnidge is also top 10 for TEs. This is not a coach that is killing the passing game.

    Farmer still takes shit for the WR issue...but again, the first year I think they truly believed Gordon would be reinstated with the rule change. I think they got sold a bad bill of goods on that one. I also think that they did a solid job of understanding what they had in Benji/Hawk/Gabriel...and went out and got a couple of vets. Bowe has not worked out...I agree....but he has also not worked with the offense since the first week of camp...so that may be a timing thing (or he may just plain suck now).

    All in all, if the Browns continue to draft like the past two years, continue to develop and retain their young talent, and develop some continuity instead of firing and hiring every other year...then maybe we get something.

    Those of you calling for the definition of insanity...the definition of insanity in Cleveland is the repeated rinse, flush, reset of the GM and HC since the 1999 rebirth. No system has EVER come to maturity...and until one does, the losing will continue.
    Football is all about synergy. Replace a poor player with a great player and watch the surrounding players suddenly seem vastly improved. When you aren't covering for someone else, you can do YOUR JOB better.



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    Quote Originally Posted by DawgFan View Post
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    I don't get the Haslam hate.
    -#8 worst owner in sports according to Rolling Stone
    http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/...rowns-20141125

    -His company engaged in a fraud scheme to keep millions of dollars owed to customers as gas rebates, to which he "knew nothing of" despite a report from Forbes saying otherwise
    http://stripehype.com/2014/01/27/lat...-jimmy-haslam/
    http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index...jimmy_h_1.html
    http://www.forbes.com/sites#/sites/m...ustomers-suit/

    -Hires and fire Chud after one year. Front office becomes a mess and multiple coaches pass over the job because of this.
    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...hise-all-wrong
    http://www.cleveland.com/browns/inde...ombardi_e.html

    -Rumors that he wanted to trade up to pick Johnny Manziel, this overriding and undermining the FO/GM

    Now no owner is perfect and he is new so he is going to make mistakes. I am just responding to the question you asked on why people may hate Haslam.

    So far he's been a crumy owner in my eyes, but my hope is he wants to win and is just going through growing pains.


    more? okay
    http://www.cleveland.com/livingston/...my_haslam.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stray Dawg View Post
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    The fans have every right to be bitter. We pay for the utter shit on the field year in year out!
    That's my point. Browns fans need places to vent.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by The Browns next QB View Post
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    -#8 worst owner in sports according to Rolling Stone
    http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/...rowns-20141125

    -His company engaged in a fraud scheme to keep millions of dollars owed to customers as gas rebates, to which he "knew nothing of" despite a report from Forbes saying otherwise
    http://stripehype.com/2014/01/27/lat...-jimmy-haslam/
    http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index...jimmy_h_1.html
    http://www.forbes.com/sites#/sites/m...ustomers-suit/

    -Hires and fire Chud after one year. Front office becomes a mess and multiple coaches pass over the job because of this.
    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...hise-all-wrong
    http://www.cleveland.com/browns/inde...ombardi_e.html

    -Rumors that he wanted to trade up to pick Johnny Manziel, this overriding and undermining the FO/GM

    Now no owner is perfect and he is new so he is going to make mistakes. I am just responding to the question you asked on why people may hate Haslam.

    So far he's been a crumy owner in my eyes, but my hope is he wants to win and is just going through growing pains.


    more? okay
    http://www.cleveland.com/livingston/...my_haslam.html
    Haslam is a walking disaster as an owner. Every key hire he has made or approved has been horrible.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by DawgFan View Post
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    I don't get the Haslam hate.

    He took over a shit team, with a shit GM...did what paid NFL consultants told him to do and it blew up in his face. He then did what he needed to do, got rid of the shit GM and his HC...moved in Pettine and Farmer...and they had one of the best years since their return. They had a decent draft in 2014 (and if Manziel pans out it will be a historically GOOD draft), then followed it up with what looks to be another solid draft in 2015. The only gripe was lack of WR's...and that currently is not the issue costing us games.

    Some of you have mentioned getting a top notch NFL GM/HC to come to Cleveland is difficult, then complain when Haslam tags a couple of up and comers (both Farmer and Pettine were on other teams radars...Farmer heavily recruited) and they go through some growing pains while turning around a decade worth of shit.

    Pettine gets this rap of not being QB/WR friendly, but then you look at the stats and you see the Browns have gone from 20th to 9th in the NFL for passing yards since last year. You see that Manziel is actually WORTH DISCUSSING as an option at QB...and McCown is having stats similar to his Chicago year. Benji is legit, and Barnidge is also top 10 for TEs. This is not a coach that is killing the passing game.

    Farmer still takes shit for the WR issue...but again, the first year I think they truly believed Gordon would be reinstated with the rule change. I think they got sold a bad bill of goods on that one. I also think that they did a solid job of understanding what they had in Benji/Hawk/Gabriel...and went out and got a couple of vets. Bowe has not worked out...I agree....but he has also not worked with the offense since the first week of camp...so that may be a timing thing (or he may just plain suck now).

    All in all, if the Browns continue to draft like the past two years, continue to develop and retain their young talent, and develop some continuity instead of firing and hiring every other year...then maybe we get something.

    Those of you calling for the definition of insanity...the definition of insanity in Cleveland is the repeated rinse, flush, reset of the GM and HC since the 1999 rebirth. No system has EVER come to maturity...and until one does, the losing will continue.
    Many of us disagree with you, and that's a gigantic understatement!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangelo930 View Post
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    If anybody acts entitled, it's the entire Cleveland Browns organization who, year after year, acts like we the fans should just have faith and trust in everything they say. That we should trust that they are competent enough to fix this thing. I'm not picking on Mike Pettine/Ray Farmer. But how many times have we heard that this is not the "same old Browns" or not to "ask me for playoff tickets" *cough* Mike Holmgren *cough*

    Fans are fans everywhere, and no fanbase would be happy with their team being a joke year after year for the better part of two decades. I don't mean to pick on anybody on this board, but I hate when people attack the fanbase. Like that helps anybody. It doesn't.
    Browns fans have endured more shit the past 15 years than fans for any other team. At least, now, Oakland has a GM who can actually select good players in the draft (Cooper, Mack, Carr) unlike the clueless clowns in Berea.

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    Jimmy def comes across as a scumbag... with plenty of material to back that up. Right now he is a Jerry Jones wanna-be. OP is correct in that it all starts at the top.. the very top.

    He needs to take more of a backseat and trust his hires. Going to be hard to attract a top coach or GM with Haslams nose in everything. Again, I like his love of football and passion for the game - he has just gone about it wrong so far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Browns next QB View Post
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    Jimmy def comes across as a scumbag... with plenty of material to back that up. Right now he is a Jerry Jones wanna-be. OP is correct in that it all starts at the top.. the very top.

    He needs to take more of a backseat and trust his hires. Going to be hard to attract a top coach or GM with Haslams nose in everything. Again, I like his love of football and passion for the game - he has just gone about it wrong so far.
    Like I keep saying -- it all beings with the owner hiring the right GM and head coach. The rest takes care of itself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackOffense View Post
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    Many of us disagree with you, and that's a gigantic understatement!
    I know. I get it. I even understand it. I am just pointing out the positives.

    I doubt anyone can say that there is LESS talent than when Haslam got the team....and even moreso since Farmer took over as GM.
    The offensive stats are what they are...the passing game does not suck.
    Most of the vets brought in have worked out. Tate definitely failed, but he was the top RB FA at the time. So far nothing from Housler and Bowe....but Whitner, Kruger, Dansby, T.Williams, Hartline to name a few...have all done well.

    No GM or owner is perfect....and I would be inclined to give Haslam the learning curve the same as anyone new to a job.
    Football is all about synergy. Replace a poor player with a great player and watch the surrounding players suddenly seem vastly improved. When you aren't covering for someone else, you can do YOUR JOB better.



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    Quote Originally Posted by DawgFan View Post
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    I know. I get it. I even understand it. I am just pointing out the positives.

    I doubt anyone can say that there is LESS talent than when Haslam got the team....and even moreso since Farmer took over as GM.
    The offensive stats are what they are...the passing game does not suck.
    Most of the vets brought in have worked out. Tate definitely failed, but he was the top RB FA at the time. So far nothing from Housler and Bowe....but Whitner, Kruger, Dansby, T.Williams, Hartline to name a few...have all done well.

    No GM or owner is perfect....and I would be inclined to give Haslam the learning curve the same as anyone new to a job.
    You forget we just played the EASY part of the 2015 schedule! Six more weeks until the bye week and it could get really ugly. It'll be interesting to see if they can hold it together.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackOffense View Post
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    we just played the EASY part of the 2015 schedule
    NY Jets are 3-1 and looking legit.
    Oakland and San Diego are 2-2 and looking like above .500 teams.

    Not sure that was as 'easy' as some thought it would be....and Baltimore isn't exactly a juggernaught.
    Football is all about synergy. Replace a poor player with a great player and watch the surrounding players suddenly seem vastly improved. When you aren't covering for someone else, you can do YOUR JOB better.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Enigmatic Evil View Post
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    I dunno Lemo, fans are critics everywhere, this is not a phenomenon exclusive to Browns/Cleveland fans. Though I agree no coach 'worth a damn' would want to come here (note, even though I hate him, we also ran Holmgren out of town and his time here arguably tarnished his reputation) I do think that it requires a certain someone with a dream big attitude to want to come here, and tough it out. We have high standards because we've been witnessing shit results for the better part of two decades now. Pettine is not the worst coach we've seen, and I don't think he's on the way out even though certain fans wish he was.

    Bottom line, we are the ones who cheer, we are the ones who pay for the product, if anyone is 'entitled' to criticize, it's fans. Just taking a counter point to you Lemo, wish you would stop by more often!
    Poor management is the no. 1 reason Cleveland is consistently bad. That directly correlates to the failed draft picks over too many years. I ask,how can a team be so bad for so long? The 2nd reason is coaching. Just bad choices on picking the HC.
    The fans definitely have a right to complain when they are faithful supporters of the team. Fans are smart enough to know if a team is making strides or going backward. Right now the Browns are going backward. It's simple really, you are paid very well as a HC, but you are evaluated on wins/losses. In todays time, coaches don't get 3 years to show improvement, it has to be immediate.
    I like Pettine, but the team is going backward and their record reflects that. If he can't turn it around, then he should not be the coach going forward. I'm just not a fan of Farmer, his draft picks have been dodo. He should be gone as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackOffense View Post
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    That's my point. Browns fans need places to vent.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Haslam is a walking disaster as an owner. Every key hire he has made or approved has been horrible.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Many of us disagree with you, and that's a gigantic understatement!
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    Quote Originally Posted by brownsdownunder View Post
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    I'd rather not. Everything I've seen from Tannefail suggests he's capable of good play IF everything around him is firing on all cylinders. He's a poor man's Alex Smith. Ultimately, I feel like we'd be wasting time.

    Personally, I feel like we'd be putting a dirt cheap and potentially still the future Johnny in a better situation while bringing proven to not be the future and incredibly expensive Tannehill to a worse situation.
    I actually do not disagree with a word you are saying. I think it would be great for Manziel but bad for the Browns.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PlaygroundLegend View Post
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    WELCOME BACK LEMO!!!!!

    And valid point...


    I keep saying we never should have fired Chud
    Actually, Chud was a disaster. The last head coach who actually showed promise was Shurmur.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldDawgCliff View Post
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    Actually, Chud was a disaster. The last head coach who actually showed promise was Shurmur.
    This is sarcasm....right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangelo930 View Post
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    This is sarcasm....right?
    No.

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    Chud was awesome!

    That was one of the most FUN losing seasons Ive ever had.

    Our defense was awesome in almost every game, instead of the last 10 minutes.

    We were throwing the ball all over the place, I LOVE the deep passing game, Chud likes to Air It OUT!

    The only problem was we had no semblance of a run game... which makes sense because we had Willis Mcghehee in a wheelchair out there and some of the worst guards in the NFL period.

    Chud was screwed. I bet year 2 he wouldve done just as well if not better

    The time has come! Our Dynasty lies ahead!

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    In defense of Shurmur, I will again offer the following:

    In 2012, Pat Shurmur won 5 games under what I would consider rather difficult circumstances. For example, there was the distraction with the Scott Fujita situation at the beginning of the season coupled with the suspension of his best defensive back, Joe Haden, for the first 4 games who then missed a fifth game with an injury. In addition to that, there was the injury to his best defensive lineman, Phil Taylor, who was lost for the season. His rookie running back, Trent Richardson, played hurt most of the season.

    And you can add to that the fact that he was saddled with a rookie quarterback who fancied himself a gunslinger and had to be reined in, and one gets, or should get, an idea of the difficulties that Shurmur faced in trying to win games in the NFL in 2012.

    Considering all this, it should not be surprising that he started the season 0-5. But that wasn't the end of it. After he had won a couple games, there were additional injuries to key personnel such as the strained abdominal muscle that Haden suffered that kept him out of the game in Dallas and hampered him in the first Pittsburgh game. And, then, there were the rookie walls that some of his rookies such as Josh Gordon hit the later part of the season--presumably due to the longer NFL season--a hazard when coaching one of the youngest team in the league.

    Nevertheless, after losing the first 5 games of the season, he won 5 of the next 8 before distractions due to the sale of the team and injuries that continued to pile up proved to be too much with such a young team.

    I think there is every reason to expect that with a team playing in the same systems for the third year in a row, a quarterback able to work on his timing as opposed to learning a new offense, both Phil Taylor and Joe Haden available and full strength, another Heckert draft, and maybe some help in FA, Shurmur's record would very likely have improved significantly in 2013.

    In any case, I am not sure how anyone would expect him to have a worse record in 2013 than he had in 2012, had the team not been sold.

    I absolutely believe that the worst thing that could have happened to the Browns was the purchase of the Browns by Jimmy Haslam and the replacement of Holmgren and Heckert with Banner and Lombardi. I think Holmgren and Heckert were in the middle of building a winner and that Banner and Lombardi were subsequently in the middle of blowing it up when they were fired. In the meantime, they were able to destroy much of what Holmgren and Heckert had built.

    But Banner and Lombardi were determined to "turn things around." And so after Holmgren, Heckert and Shurmur were all fired, Banner and Lombardi hired Rob Chudzinski as our new head coach, who changed both the offensive and defensive systems in the same year. On offense, Chudzinski hired Norv Turner to convert the offense from Pat Shurmur's WCO to his version of the Air Coryell. And a defense which had performed quite well under Dick Jauron was changed by the new defensive coordinator, Ray Horton, from a 4-3 to a 3-4. The results were predictable and disastrous.

    My opinion is that instead of continuing to build a winner with Shurmur, we took a huge step backwards with Chudzinski.

    Unfortunately, while we were one of the youngest teams under Shurmur and on the way up, only three years later, we are now one of the oldest and on the way down. The problem is that things are likely to get worse before they are better.

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