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  1. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gambler View Post
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    Poor management is the no. 1 reason Cleveland is consistently bad. That directly correlates to the failed draft picks over too many years. I ask,how can a team be so bad for so long? The 2nd reason is coaching. Just bad choices on picking the HC.
    The fans definitely have a right to complain when they are faithful supporters of the team. Fans are smart enough to know if a team is making strides or going backward. Right now the Browns are going backward. It's simple really, you are paid very well as a HC, but you are evaluated on wins/losses. In todays time, coaches don't get 3 years to show improvement, it has to be immediate.
    I like Pettine, but the team is going backward and their record reflects that. If he can't turn it around, then he should not be the coach going forward. I'm just not a fan of Farmer, his draft picks have been dodo. He should be gone as well.
    The number one reason we've been bad for so long is the instability at HC/GM. Every time we change HC/GM, the players change and the few that stay have to learn a new system. Those players are expected to be leaders in systems they themselves don't know as well as the FA's the new FO/HC brings in and therefore undermines those players and then the locker room goes to shit and it all falls apart.

    Then the HC/FO are spending too much time fucking around putting out fires like the recent Haden incident and Gilbert/Hawkins incident. Also figuring out guys like Bowe and Housler and what to do to get them going or cut instead of game planning for the Ravens.
    Last edited by jaydog; 10-09-2015 at 07:22 AM.
    "The quarterback question lingers, but the Browns traded and traded and traded and traded and traded and acquired nine players and three high draft choices.

    It's tough to argue those results." Pat McManamon 5-3-16

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaydog View Post
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    The number one reason we've been bad for so long is the instability at HC/GM. Every time we change HC/GM, the players change and the few that stay have to learn a new system. Those players are expected to be leaders in systems they themselves don't know as well as the FA's the new FO/HC brings in and therefore undermines those players and then the locker room goes to shit and it all falls apart.

    Then the HC/FO are spending too much time fucking around putting out fires like the recent Haden incident and Gilbert/Hawkins incident. Also figuring out guys like Bowe and Housler and what to do to get them going or cut instead of game planning for the Ravens.
    It begins with the HIRING process! We have instability because the owners are horrible at finding and selecting the right people. All the GMs and head coaches have been horrific. Guys like Pettine, Mangini and Crennel think its 1934 and their approach to football is way out of touch with the rhythms and approaches of the modern NFL game. This isn't rocket scienece. But Browns can't hire people who understand it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaydog View Post
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    The number one reason we've been bad for so long is the instability at HC/GM. Every time we change HC/GM, the players change and the few that stay have to learn a new system. Those players are expected to be leaders in systems they themselves don't know as well as the FA's the new FO/HC brings in and therefore undermines those players and then the locker room goes to shit and it all falls apart.

    Then the HC/FO are spending too much time fucking around putting out fires like the recent Haden incident and Gilbert/Hawkins incident. Also figuring out guys like Bowe and Housler and what to do to get them going or cut instead of game planning for the Ravens.
    That is very true. However, when you have the wrong GM and coach, what do you do?

    In my opinion, Pettine is beyond hope. Not so sure about Farmer. His signing of T. Williams and Bowe are not a good sign, obviously. And if he really intended McCown to be competition for Manziel instead of a mentor, he is probably a waste.

    But there may be mitigating things we don't know.

    As for your point about the incoming FA's knowing more and undermining than the current veterans/leaders, the way to avoid that is to build through the draft while re-signing the best of the young players you already have like Holmgren/Heckert did before the team was sold and they were ignominiously fired and replaced by a couple of loses like Banner and Lombardi.

    If Haslan and Farmer immediately fired Pettine, and Farmer elevated DeFilippo with instructions to start Manziel, he might yet have a chance. If he drafted a top receiver to help Manziel, and otherwise started replacing the older players on defense with good rookies from the draft, he might be close to building a winner in a just a couple of years.

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    If Pettine is fired we will be screwed for a few more years and that's if the new guy is an unbelievably good HC. It will probably mean JFF will be thrown to the wolves and eventually cut too.

    I agree better drafts will solve the FA/leadership locker room problem too, but good drafts haven't been happening and Farmer has only two drafts as we speak. We need at least three if not four or five drafts from the same FO and HC to get some meaningful continuity and realize the payoffs of developing some UDFA's like Crow. Two drafts and 20 games total? Well that's just not enough time, but some still want to fire them all.

    Pettine's role is to choose which guys don't want to be here and advise Farmer, i.e.: Bowe doesn't want to play and is only collecting a check. He needs to go. He also needs to do the customary coaching, game planning and stuff, but I mean with regards to the roster development. Or, if Gilbert is trying as hard as can be and still not getting it then what is our next move on him now and long term.
    "The quarterback question lingers, but the Browns traded and traded and traded and traded and traded and acquired nine players and three high draft choices.

    It's tough to argue those results." Pat McManamon 5-3-16

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaydog View Post
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    If Pettine is fired we will be screwed for a few more years and that's if the new guy is an unbelievably good HC. It will probably mean JFF will be thrown to the wolves and eventually cut too.

    I agree better drafts will solve the FA/leadership locker room problem too, but good drafts haven't been happening and Farmer has only two drafts as we speak. We need at least three if not four or five drafts from the same FO and HC to get some meaningful continuity and realize the payoffs of developing some UDFA's like Crow. Two drafts and 20 games total? Well that's just not enough time, but some still want to fire them all.

    Pettine's role is to choose which guys don't want to be here and advise Farmer, i.e.: Bowe doesn't want to play and is only collecting a check. He needs to go. He also needs to do the customary coaching, game planning and stuff, but I mean with regards to the roster development. Or, if Gilbert is trying as hard as can be and still not getting it then what is our next move on him now and long term.
    I don't buy that at all. I think with the nucleus here, PLUS some good and aggressive decisions by a NEW and qualitative GM, this team could make it to the playoffs its first year.

  6. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaydog View Post
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    If Pettine is fired we will be screwed for a few more years and that's if the new guy is an unbelievably good HC. It will probably mean JFF will be thrown to the wolves and eventually cut too.

    I agree better drafts will solve the FA/leadership locker room problem too, but good drafts haven't been happening and Farmer has only two drafts as we speak. We need at least three if not four or five drafts from the same FO and HC to get some meaningful continuity and realize the payoffs of developing some UDFA's like Crow. Two drafts and 20 games total? Well that's just not enough time, but some still want to fire them all.

    Pettine's role is to choose which guys don't want to be here and advise Farmer, i.e.: Bowe doesn't want to play and is only collecting a check. He needs to go. He also needs to do the customary coaching, game planning and stuff, but I mean with regards to the roster development. Or, if Gilbert is trying as hard as can be and still not getting it then what is our next move on him now and long term.
    With regard to Pettine, you can't build through the draft if your head coach won't play your prospects. Regarding the draft, some come in ready to play and some need development either in practice or game action. But you can't build through the draft by bringing in players like T. Williams and Bowe. It don't work that way.

    As for Gilbert, first try to determine with available information if he is ever going to make it as a corner. If so, fine, let him do kick returns until he is ready to take over as the #2 corner. If not, consider moving him to a less demanding position like safety. If that also is a no, try to trade him. If you can't get somebody to assume his contract, consider if he is worth keeping for kick returns. If not, release him.

    Actually, the logic of the matter with Gilbert--as with a lot of young players--is pretty simple. It is the analysis that is tough. And the best in the business can make mistakes. The point to make with Farmer is: don't make mistakes like T. Williams and Bowe.

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    T Williams has not been god awful and Pettine couldn't play JFF because he pissed his opportunity away last year and this year ain't over. Again we've only had both Pettine and JFF for 20 games and JFF was useless in 16 of those. Gilbert for that matter too.

    It's a new year now. JFF did what he was supposed to as a back up. Excellent for him. Pettine stayed with JFF long enough to see some development. Development that we never would have seen had JFF been cut or traded as some had suggested after last year. Why? He was given time. JFF was not the guy who was ready to play right out of the draft.

    Do you think it would be odd if Pettine was fired after he gave JFF time and space to get his shit together then played him in a game and he did reasonably well yet Pettine wasn't afforded the time he needed for the whole damn lot of this roster?

    I do.
    "The quarterback question lingers, but the Browns traded and traded and traded and traded and traded and acquired nine players and three high draft choices.

    It's tough to argue those results." Pat McManamon 5-3-16

  8. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaydog View Post
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    T Williams has not been god awful and Pettine couldn't play JFF because he pissed his opportunity away last year and this year ain't over. Again we've only had both Pettine and JFF for 20 games and JFF was useless in 16 of those. Gilbert for that matter too.

    It's a new year now. JFF did what he was supposed to as a back up. Excellent for him. Pettine stayed with JFF long enough to see some development. Development that we never would have seen had JFF been cut or traded as some had suggested after last year. Why? He was given time. JFF was not the guy who was ready to play right out of the draft.

    Do you think it would be odd if Pettine was fired after he gave JFF time and space to get his shit together then played him in a game and he did reasonably well yet Pettine wasn't afforded the time he needed for the whole damn lot of this roster?

    I do.
    T. Williams is a 32 year old veteran who was added to a secondary which consisted already of Haden, K. Williams, Desir and Gilbert. If the Browns were not already deep at the position and we were hoping to advance in the playoffs, signing T. Williams might have made some sense. But neither is the case. We have second year players that need to play in order to develop and we are a long way from making the playoff much less advancing in the playoffs. We are a rebuilding team. (Actually, we are either a rebuilding team or a perennial loser, one or the other, and I prefer to think of us as a rebuilding team.)

    On that basis, signing T. Williams for big bucks is stupid. Never mind that T. Williams has played pretty well, Desir is likely to have played about as well and needs the experience.

    As for Pettine developing Manziel, that is a laugh. The only reason Pettine played Manziel last year was because his supposed franchise quarterback, Brian Hoyer, absolutely failed and the only reason he played Manziel this year was because McCown had a concussion. The only time he has ever played Manziel is when he absolutely had no choice. Indeed, Pettine in general seems to have no interest whatever in developing young talent but instead prefers to stick with aging veterans whenever possible.

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    So any FA signing is stupid "on that basis". Never mind that we made a decision to let our starting corner leave via FA (Skine) and had a rookie-head case as a replacement who can't get on the field.

    If we'd rolled into this year without a FA addition at corner, that would have been risky at best; stupid at worst.

    I get your underlying point but my goodness we've sunk low when a quality FA signing is actually performing and yet its a bone of contention. There's no pleasing when you get to that stage.

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    No talent is getting developed here.

    This team is getting worse. Lol

    Mike pettine isnt playing manziel ej bibbs xavier cooper gilbert poyer erving gabriel duke johnson

    We need our young studs to play. We are 1-3. We are a 4-12 team.
    Id rather be 3-13 and get young guys experience.

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    Pettine went with the 'win now' model.
    And he's not winning.

    Next...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    So any FA signing is stupid "on that basis". Never mind that we made a decision to let our starting corner leave via FA (Skine) and had a rookie-head case as a replacement who can't get on the field.

    If we'd rolled into this year without a FA addition at corner, that would have been risky at best; stupid at worst.

    I get your underlying point but my goodness we've sunk low when a quality FA signing is actually performing and yet its a bone of contention. There's no pleasing when you get to that stage.
    Skrine was 26 years old and signed a 4 year contract with the Jets for 25M. Tramon Williams is 32 and signed a 3 year deal with Cleveland for 21M.

    Get the picture? Does that tell you what the Browns are doing wrong?

    Understand, nothing against T. Williams. He is a good player. But if you can sign a 26 year old stud that someone else has developed, do it. However, letting a 26 year old stud leave and replacing him with a 32 year old for more money is the way you age your team.

    It is not smart.

    And, in this case, there was really no reason to replace Skrine with a player from the outside anyway. We had three 22 year old kids that need developing. And as I said in a prior post, if we felt that we needed a 32 year old player to get us through the playoffs and to the Super Bowl, that would be one thing, but, realistically, with or without another aging veteran, we aren't even close to sniffing the playoffs.

    We would be better off developing someone like Terrelle Pryor. It might turn out to be a mistake, but right now, it is a mistake we can afford. We are not going anywhere this year anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldDawgCliff View Post
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    We are not going anywhere this year anyway.


    It looks pretty bleak but I am still hopeful. No retreat baby.....no surrender. It starts with kicking the hell out of the ratbirds and we go from there. Seriously.

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    Develop Pryor....rotflmfao

    I liked skrine but he wasn't worth the money the jets paid him. He wasn't worth the money Williams even got

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    And for craps sake, who really believed the browns were going anywhere this year.

    McCown was a signing to play if Manziel couldnt seize the job. He couldn't beat out McCown. That's why Josh is playing and jhonny isnt. Manziel came in as a multi year project to even get to being a nfl qb prospect. Fucking off year 1 didn't help that.

    None of this means farmer and pettine are grand, but for craps sake rag on them for the legit shit, not the dipshit drunk fan at a bar crap.

    Bowe, bad signing. Not drafting a wr last year, sure. Reaching for gilbert and Manziel. Taking an OL in the first round this year, sure. A D that can't stop the run. An O that can't run. A D that can't get pressure on the the qb.etc. there is a bucket full of legit shit to fling at these guys.

    Bitchhing about signing a williams, playing the vet qb Manziel couldn't beat out, not playing guys who are actually playing, and other nonsensical crap make this place look like a bunch of dipshits. Is that what browns fantom has drifted to after all these year of the teams ineptitude? Now even the fans are inept?
    Last edited by Masters; 10-10-2015 at 02:50 AM.

  16. #112
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    Manziel couldn't beat out mccown.

    You're right.

    Neither could Steve from the tire shop. Both got about the same opportunity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldDawgCliff View Post
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    Skrine was 26 years old and signed a 4 year contract with the Jets for 25M. Tramon Williams is 32 and signed a 3 year deal with Cleveland for 21M.

    Get the picture? Does that tell you what the Browns are doing wrong?

    Understand, nothing against T. Williams. He is a good player. But if you can sign a 26 year old stud that someone else has developed, do it. However, letting a 26 year old stud leave and replacing him with a 32 year old for more money is the way you age your team.

    It is not smart.

    And, in this case, there was really no reason to replace Skrine with a player from the outside anyway. We had three 22 year old kids that need developing. And as I said in a prior post, if we felt that we needed a 32 year old player to get us through the playoffs and to the Super Bowl, that would be one thing, but, realistically, with or without another aging veteran, we aren't even close to sniffing the playoffs.

    We would be better off developing someone like Terrelle Pryor. It might turn out to be a mistake, but right now, it is a mistake we can afford. We are not going anywhere this year anyway.
    You think Skrine is a stud? He's good, but he's a slot CB and we have K'waun to fill that role cheaper.

    Pettine has developed K'waun, Kirksey, Poyer, Crow, Gabriel and others under his watch. Also JFF. Just cause JFF isn't starting yet doesn't mean Pettine doesn't develop players. It's also hard to develop a junky, rookie QB no matter what excuse you can find.

    Bottom line is any player who is a junky will take time to develop on and off the field and even more so at the QB position.

    I can't believe I have to state that last sentence.
    "The quarterback question lingers, but the Browns traded and traded and traded and traded and traded and acquired nine players and three high draft choices.

    It's tough to argue those results." Pat McManamon 5-3-16

  18. #114
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    6-10
    7-9
    7-9
    11-5

    I'd like to remind everyone that when we had the greatest head coach of the modern era, it took him four years to get us to the playoffs. Four years to even post a winning record. We turned that corner because there was continuity in the front office and the coaching ranks, and the only reason it went to shit is because Art Modell is pretty much Adolf Hitler.

    And that's just the best head coach around who wins Superbowls like he's poppin' candy on Halloween. It isn't an overnight process even for the once in a lifetime coach. I'm not saying we need to give a coach and GM combo six years to build the team, but I am saying we need to give them more than two years.

    What is worse is we never have continuity, so at any given time this roster is a conglomeration of the visions that three different general managers and head coaches had. They aren't a cohesive unit. At any given time, only 1/3 of our players were specifically chosen to run the system they will be running, hand picked to suit the scheme. Is it really any wonder we struggle to see that unity of a team when our team is comprised of three different teams who yearly have different coaches telling them what to do and how to run the different nuances of the system?

    Our drafting isn't perfect, but if we sat here and went though some of the top teams we're going to see the exact same things. When teams have more time, they do better, they add talented that is better suited to play together, they're more willing to take risks, the players become more comfortable and confident in their roles and they grow having grown with a bunch of other dudes on this roster. Most guys get better every year, especially when coaches are able to add the maximum talent possible based on the job they're going to be doing.

    If we give up once again, and bring in new coaches next year, we're giving up half our roster and wasting another two seasons on efforts to try against all odds to earn continuity rather than just doing it. Already, the players have got to know the coach is on the hot seat and probably will be fired. That means their own job security comes into question. Before the season even really began, our fans and media forced an elephant in the room to become a massive distraction to a team who is 'Totally in game two of their second year in the system why isn't shit perfect!?'

    I'm with Jay - Continuity is the most important thing. We've gotta keep a team together for at least four seasons and see what we've got.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaydog View Post
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    You think Skrine is a stud? He's good, but he's a slot CB and we have K'waun to fill that role cheaper.

    Pettine has developed K'waun, Kirksey, Poyer, Crow, Gabriel and others under his watch. Also JFF. Just cause JFF isn't starting yet doesn't mean Pettine doesn't develop players. It's also hard to develop a junky, rookie QB no matter what excuse you can find.

    Bottom line is any player who is a junky will take time to develop on and off the field and even more so at the QB position.

    I can't believe I have to state that last sentence.
    This is a tough call. Williams was very good but is declining, for sure, Skrine is just OK in my book. But my concern is we are signing too many guys who have left their best days behind them, i.e. Williams, Bowe Whitner. Why can't we sign more players in their prime or about to enter their prime?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoatShoes View Post
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    Manziel couldn't beat out mccown.

    You're right.

    Neither could Steve from the tire shop. Both got about the same opportunity.
    My prediction is that as the competition gets tougher and the defenses get better, McCown will have a tougher time and that the more explosive Manziel might be a better option, and we'll see that play out this season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoatShoes View Post
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    Pettine went with the 'win now' model.
    And he's not winning.

    Next...
    Pettine went with the Model-t model -- an outdated, jalopy-like offensive philosophy of conservative offense and count on the defense. The only problem with that is there is only one Seahawks defense every decade and other offenses have big time playmakers that help rack up a lot of points. Browns have gotten behind early in three of their games and lack the game breaking firepower to come all the way back. Defenses slacken some when offenses get ahead and some of McCown's success has been an illusion, in my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoatShoes View Post
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    Manziel couldn't beat out mccown.

    You're right.

    Neither could Steve from the tire shop. Both got about the same opportunity.
    Yeah, this is where you lose me. Posts like this which infer the coaching staff is incompetent because they didn't start the clearly better and clearly ready Manziel. Its fine that its your opinion, but to make absolute statements about Manziel not getting an opportunity to compete is just poor debating.

    Carry on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brownsdownunder View Post
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    What is worse is we never have continuity, so at any given time this roster is a conglomeration of the visions that three different general managers and head coaches had. They aren't a cohesive unit. At any given time, only 1/3 of our players were specifically chosen to run the system they will be running, hand picked to suit the scheme. Is it really any wonder we struggle to see that unity of a team when our team is comprised of three different teams who yearly have different coaches telling them what to do and how to run the different nuances of the system?
    This is likely one of, if not the, biggest reasons for our ongoing failure. Wash, rinse, repeat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackOffense View Post
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    This is a tough call. Williams was very good but is declining, for sure, Skrine is just OK in my book. But my concern is we are signing too many guys who have left their best days behind them, i.e. Williams, Bowe Whitner. Why can't we sign more players in their prime or about to enter their prime?
    Because teams overpay for guys like that or they just aren't available.

    I get the decision to let Skrine go. Correspondingly, I the signing of Williams made sense to me.

    Now, if the staff had known Gilbert was going to bust this hard... maybe they would have handled Skrine differently. I doubt it, but it would have been a reason to pause.

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