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Thread: Browns vs Cardinals

  1. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1dawgfan View Post
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    Az is on a short week traveling east.
    west coast teams traveling east for 1pm starts dont typically fare well, let alone on short weeks.
    just saying.
    Cardinals lost in Pittsburgh by 13 just other week. I think the game is going to be close.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shep View Post
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    Manziel's way tougher to defend, period. He's 1-0 and looked great doing it. It's nothing short of moronic to keep playing a dirty starter with a 2-5 record. It's pointless. Pettine sounds more like Mangini every day.

    Jeez, at least starting Manziel sparks some fucking interest. Let the kid play and let it rip. Let's go already. This is walking in place, playing another Delhomme. Cripes already.
    That's the rub. Manziel worries defenses more and I hate it defenses are just bunching up now because they don't fear the run and most of the Browns receivers are lousy deep.

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    Fans want excitement. Coaches want to win.

    Fans don't like McCown. He's boring. He's not the future. He's a "dirty starter". Coaches like McCown. He's at the bottom of the list of problem areas and is the ninth rated passer in the NFL.

    Fans want Manziel now. We're 2-5. Season's over. Coaches want Manziel later. We're only seven games in. Season's not over. There are 53 guys who still believe they can make the playoffs. That's where the coach's loyalty lies.

    If the fans that want to see Manziel now would just be honest about it, there'd be no controversy. What makes it comical is when those fans who want Manziel now take to insulting the coaching staff for not doing it. Comments like "It makes no sense" and the ilk are especially entertaining. I bet you could interview all 32 head coaches and they would 100% say, "Based on how their season has gone, if McCown were healthy I'd start him too".

    Keep in mind: This is coming from a guy who's excited to see Manziel play.

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    I can tell we are getting a little stir crazy due to the losses. Lets not direct the frustration at eachother.. lets direct it at the real problem.. the lack of W's.




    IF THERE WAS EVER A GAME WE NEED TO RUN THE BALL EFFECTIVELY... ITS THIS ONE


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    Kicking this Manziel can down the road is something politicians would do. It's all one objection after another. These are manufactured objections mind you. I can understand the delays last year, but not so much this year. There really aren't any viable excuses worth exploring anymore. I would hate to float reverse discrimination out there...really would. But, not a single Caucasian player was drafted last year. Just have to go off what's in front of me. Facts.

    Look at Johnny's comments recently. To paraphrase...I hope nobody has forgotten me. WTH is that anyhow? Gilbert's forgotten, too. He's been pissed lately. Obviously. Shelton's been frustrated lately. Penalties and arguments. Cam Irving isn't going to say anything because he's used to corruption at FSU. There ya go. Four first rounders who know what's up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shep View Post
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    Jeez, at least starting Manziel sparks some fucking interest. Let the kid play and let it rip. Let's go already. This is walking in place
    Everything says we'll lose these next two. McCown, Manziel, Elmer Fudd - doesn't matter.

    I'd rather see Manziel just for something to watch. McCown throwing a million 5 yard passes just isn't that fun to watch.

    Read somewhere once upon a time, one of the key things scouts look for in college QB's is the drive at the end of the half and at the end of a game. When needed, does the QB elevate or not.

    McCown doesn't seem to do this. He gets close, but most of the time, he falls short. He had close losses in Chicago and the same goes for here.

    So, we can just rinse and repeat, or try something different.

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    I 'm not going to go deeper into McCown and where I think he stands compared to Manziel.

    We have simply shown that we can 't handle strong defenses.
    Both Jets and Rams spanked us.

    The problems I see with this team are really fundamental and that 's why blowing it up is possible in my mind.

    We have a load of talent on the OL, you can 't really get much more.
    Yet we get absolutely no favors in the running game. Zilch.

    You have a 1st round Pro Bowl tackle in Joe, a high 2nd in Bito, former 1st round C, Greco, journeyman 3rd rounder and 2nd rounder T.
    Mitchell Schwartz actually had his best start to a season until this game.

    Can 't really get in much more talent, not to mention that we have a 1st rounder keeping the bench warm.

    They should annihilate opposing lines, yet getting a push is SciFi.
    Not only that, they absolutely cannot execute the Power Scheme, and we 've gone away from what actually worked last year.
    It 's infuriating.

    I do understand Mack is probably going to be shite this year, but it really shouldn 't bring down the whole line.

    Also, our running backs are not consistently hitting when they are there, and often aren 't there.
    Crowell has had some really bad runs, Duke and Turbin both showed more decisiveness.

    The staple of our offense was supposed to be the running game.
    We supposedly had the personnel and that was the one thing that was going to work.
    Yet we haven 't mustered a 100 yards in a game if I 'm correct, it just seems like it.

    We can 't just pass the ball, and thinking McCown or Manziel can play Rodgers and carry the team...
    It wasn 't our philosophy nor should they shoulder such load given the talent on other positions.

    On defense, I really don 't know where to start.

    We are whiffing all over the place.
    We are not tackling forwards, we are tackling backwards. Momentum and shit.

    It 's a combination of both inexperience, scheme and a pretty lax mentality.

    I haven 't seen a decent hit since the Hughes hit on Mariota. FFS it 's not ballet.
    Shelton has been OK, but in whatever way we 're rotating, we 're not doing it in a way to bring out the best.

    Pettine 's roots are in a attacking defense, yet we 're reading, reading, reading and then reacting poorly.

    Secondary play as a whole has been bad and combine that with one sack per season average we are attacking it 's bad.

    Just a lack of winners is disheartening.

    Hope we don 't get spanked.
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    Meh, I'm with Cliff. Throw McCown's numbers around all you want, we are not scoring points. We're not driving down the field. We're not converting third downs. McCown's greatest strength is that he plays to not make mistakes, which falls in line with our head coach's philosophy (now I can see why he likes him so much) but there's just no risk. Unless Barnidge is WIDE fucking open down field, how many shots does Josh take? I would be suspect of McCown if he were healthy, but now he's probably playing with one arm versus a D that will likely be licking its chops coming in to this game.

    I am fucking cynical as hell right now guys, and I'm sorry, but the QB play just like the lack of run game and our fucking miserable defense is a solid reason why. I can't even bother to find my brown and orange glasses, I probably stepped on them in frustration last week.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    Fans want excitement. Coaches want to win.

    Fans don't like McCown. He's boring. He's not the future. He's a "dirty starter". Coaches like McCown. He's at the bottom of the list of problem areas and is the ninth rated passer in the NFL.

    Fans want Manziel now. We're 2-5. Season's over. Coaches want Manziel later. We're only seven games in. Season's not over. There are 53 guys who still believe they can make the playoffs. That's where the coach's loyalty lies.

    If the fans that want to see Manziel now would just be honest about it, there'd be no controversy. What makes it comical is when those fans who want Manziel now take to insulting the coaching staff for not doing it. Comments like "It makes no sense" and the ilk are especially entertaining. I bet you could interview all 32 head coaches and they would 100% say, "Based on how their season has gone, if McCown were healthy I'd start him too".

    Keep in mind: This is coming from a guy who's excited to see Manziel play.
    I think you are wrong about Pettine doing what most coaches would do in his position. I see coaches year after year around the league playing rookie quarterbacks. I seriously doubt if Bill O'Brien at Houston would play McCown over Manziel. This is a guy who has switched back and forth between two McCowns looking for a spark.

    I do agree that McCown is boring--as is Hoyer and Mallett and other such like QBs.

    You say you prefer to win with boring than lose with excitement. Fair enough. By the way, how is winning with boring working out?

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    Here's the other thing.

    You can't wholesale change the D, the WR's, or the O line. The RB's are who they are.

    The easiest change you can make is at QB - deserved or not. Replacing an aging banged up veteran (who yes, deserves a ton of respect) with a first round QB THIS front office moved up to get isn't that crazy of idea.

    They could have kept grinding in Miami, but they didn't. They changed the other thing that's somewhat easy to change - the HC. Now they're scoring points by the buckets.

    Just keep the "we have to do better" talk going all year and we'll keep getting the same results.

    I swear I've never seen a franchise work this hard not to start it's first round QB.

    Not starting Mingo, Gilbert, Erving, Manziel, on and on and on. Embarrassing. At least Shelton is improving.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OconRecon View Post
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    Here's the other thing.

    You can't wholesale change the D, the WR's, or the O line. The RB's are who they are.

    The easiest change you can make is at QB - deserved or not. Replacing an aging banged up veteran (who yes, deserves a ton of respect) with a first round QB THIS front office moved up to get isn't that crazy of idea.

    They could have kept grinding in Miami, but they didn't. They changed the other thing that's somewhat easy to change - the HC. Now they're scoring points by the buckets.

    Just keep the "we have to do better" talk going all year and we'll keep getting the same results.

    I swear I've never seen a franchise work this hard not to start it's first round QB.

    Not starting Mingo, Gilbert, Erving, Manziel, on and on and on. Embarrassing. At least Shelton is improving.
    But broken down vets are more reliable than inexperienced youngsters. Didn't you know?

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldDawgCliff View Post
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    But broken down vets are more reliable than inexperienced youngsters. Didn't you know?
    "I hate rookie quarterbacks"



    I really do like McCown the person. He's about as far from an a-hole as you can be. I'm just ready to have another look at Manziel. I like that he's hungry. I like he had an up-tick in his answers after last game when he thought there was a chance he'd be playing this week.

    If we're going to lose, let's see a spark now and then.

    Yeah, I'm a fan, and I'd like to see something new.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Sarge View Post
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    Four first rounders who know what's up.
    That's pretty funny.

    Gilbert and Manziel have a storied history of struggling with maturity issues. Gilbert appears to still be battling his demons while Johnny appears to have made progress. Shelton and Erving? I havent' heard a peep from either in terms of corruption/hating coaches or any other form is dissatisfaction except, in Shelton's case, his own play.

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    I just think you guys are barking up the wrong tree. Not that it isn't a good or fair tree to bark at but there's a towering cluster of sequoia's you are trotting past: horrible run defense, inability to limit big plays (air/ground both), inability to run the football, rookie OC errors (toss sweep?), penalties, receivers fumbling footballs.

    Have you noticed there aren't any actual football people discussing the Browns current problems as stemming from their QB position?

    Wanting to see Manziel because you want to see him play; see what he's got makes sense. I share that.

    Wanting to see Manziel because you think he's better than the guy ahead of him right now doesn't make sense. That's the coach's view and I think its the view that O'Brien or any other NFL head coach would likely echo.

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    Back to the Arizona game....

    Their defense looks great in the stat column until you realize the following:
    Wk 1: New Orleans...when they were struggling badly
    Wk 2: Chicago with the 'pickle' at QB (27th offense)
    Wk 3: San Francisco...is anyone afraid of Kaepernick passing? (32nd offense)
    Wk 4: St. Louis - They lost to Foles (31st offense)
    Wk 5: Detroit...when Orlovsky was the QB (20th offense)
    Wk 6: Pittsburgh - They lost to Vick (19th offense)
    Wk 7: Baltimore - they are 1-6 for a reason (15th offense)

    Only New Orleans is a better ranked offense than the Browns...and the Cards have faced 3 backups, with Foles, Kaepernick and Flacco all at the bottom of the league in passer rating.

    Not saying they aren't good, just saying they haven't been tested yet. Not really.
    Football is all about synergy. Replace a poor player with a great player and watch the surrounding players suddenly seem vastly improved. When you aren't covering for someone else, you can do YOUR JOB better.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    I just think you guys are barking up the wrong tree. Not that it isn't a good or fair tree to bark at but there's a towering cluster of sequoia's you are trotting past: horrible run defense, inability to limit big plays (air/ground both), inability to run the football, rookie OC errors (toss sweep?), penalties, receivers fumbling footballs.

    Have you noticed there aren't any actual football people discussing the Browns current problems as stemming from their QB position?

    Wanting to see Manziel because you want to see him play; see what he's got makes sense. I share that.

    Wanting to see Manziel because you think he's better than the guy ahead of him right now doesn't make sense. That's the coach's view and I think its the view that O'Brien or any other NFL head coach would likely echo.
    I'll bite... and counter first with I've yet to see one true rebuke/defense of our QB play outside the platitude of 'top ten QB stats' which is rather weak and baseless to me when our offense is scoring 21ppg (which is bottom 1/4 in the NFL btw). What is McCown doing that is helping this team win football games? Other than seemingly amassing yardage in the fourth quarter when the game's out of reach... 8 TD's in 6 games, it's not great, but yeah it's not shit. I'll give you that.

    Horrible run D: It is what it is, but no excuse for mediocre QB play.

    Inability to limit big plays: Again, I don't see how this dismisses criticism of the offense/QB/what have you.

    Inability to run the football: This is the biggest one to me. I said in the other thread that Crow was giving me Richardson flashbacks last week, but IMO when the offense seems so content shooting itself in the foot with dump-off's or short routes, and then cannot capitalize with the run game, it's like a cyclical perpetuation problem which results in a 3-and-out...

    Rookie OC errors: Is it really OC error, or is it failure of execution? We haven't seen a ton of head scratching plays, I'd argue, compared to last season with Shannahan.

    Penalties: That's discipline, and it's on both sides of the ball... but again, when you're 3rd and 18 (because of penalties) and you run a fucking HB draw... okay that may be a rookie OC error

    Fumbles: Self explanatory. Manziel has 4, McCown 6, consider Manziel's limited play.

    Now I have argued why Manziel is NOT better than McCown (see my Megathread post) but simply put. I've seen enough of McCown. In the words of Coach Green. He is who we thought he would be... Pretty good versus below average defenses, and shit against good ones.
    BROWNS 2017: I'M JASON LA CANFORA'S INSIDER
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  17. #41
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    Sorry to contribute to the derailment of the thread but I am just hella salty right now :P
    BROWNS 2017: I'M JASON LA CANFORA'S INSIDER
    "I just do not get worked up over games anymore. I realized some time ago there is no point in getting worked up over them. I have no control over the outcome, it has no impact on me personally, and I have little to no actual facts to work from on properly analyzing the results." - Masters

    "My Mother's day card always says "Mum, I love you less than I love Joe Thomas. You can't even block, for fuck sakes." - brownsdownunder

    "Don't try to make me feel dumb for my opinion. You can kiss my ass." - MalcolmBrown

    "Hue and the guys are gonna turn that Frankenstein into a Frankenfine!" - next2nothing on RGIII

    WOOF WOOF WOOF!


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    Quote Originally Posted by DawgFan View Post
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    Back to the Arizona game....

    Their defense looks great in the stat column until you realize the following:
    Wk 1: New Orleans...when they were struggling badly
    Wk 2: Chicago with the 'pickle' at QB (27th offense)
    Wk 3: San Francisco...is anyone afraid of Kaepernick passing? (32nd offense)
    Wk 4: St. Louis - They lost to Foles (31st offense)
    Wk 5: Detroit...when Orlovsky was the QB (20th offense)
    Wk 6: Pittsburgh - They lost to Vick (19th offense)
    Wk 7: Baltimore - they are 1-6 for a reason (15th offense)

    Only New Orleans is a better ranked offense than the Browns...and the Cards have faced 3 backups, with Foles, Kaepernick and Flacco all at the bottom of the league in passer rating.

    Not saying they aren't good, just saying they haven't been tested yet. Not really.
    To this end DF, I'm strongly doubtful our offense will offer them much of a test either...
    BROWNS 2017: I'M JASON LA CANFORA'S INSIDER
    "I just do not get worked up over games anymore. I realized some time ago there is no point in getting worked up over them. I have no control over the outcome, it has no impact on me personally, and I have little to no actual facts to work from on properly analyzing the results." - Masters

    "My Mother's day card always says "Mum, I love you less than I love Joe Thomas. You can't even block, for fuck sakes." - brownsdownunder

    "Don't try to make me feel dumb for my opinion. You can kiss my ass." - MalcolmBrown

    "Hue and the guys are gonna turn that Frankenstein into a Frankenfine!" - next2nothing on RGIII

    WOOF WOOF WOOF!


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    Quote Originally Posted by Enigmatic Evil View Post
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    Throw McCown's numbers around all you want, we are not scoring points. We're not driving down the field. We're not converting third downs. . . .

    "We're not converting third downs" Well, as a matter of fact, we're ranked #7 in the NFL in 3rd down conversion percentage at 44.1%. (Get ready, Sunday will be frustrating, Atlanta is #3 in the league with 46.1%). I've also heard stats about how McCown is one of the top QBs in the league in 3rd down QB rating.

    But Sunday won't be fun unless this Defense learns how to make some stops. Arizona's offense is ranking at the top of almost every category.

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    EE, the points I listed were the elements higher on the list of reasons why we're losing football games. Meaning, we're all worked up about Manziel through the lens of our losing when, in fact, our starting QB has been playing well enough to win. I mean are we expecting Manziel to be a quantum leap better than 9th in the league?

    Fool brings up our 3rd down conversion rate which has been all via the passing game.

    Its been really, really good especially when you consider our expectations coming into the year.

    Now, the "I want to see Manziel because I think the season is lost already" line of thinking makes sense to me as a fan. I'd even agree. However, if any of us were actually on that football team and talking over a Gatorade we wouldn't be saying that shit. Hell no, we'd be talking about getting our own personal shit together, playing better football, and making a run. That's what Pettine and Flip have to meet everyday; not fans being realistic about our chances.

    Again, my two cents worth.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Oh, and Browns 31 Cardinals 30. We win on a game winning FG.

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    I have consistently and repeatedly argued that McCown is trending downward to the point that his hot start will be all but mitigated in short order.

    Vs: Denver 6/15
    Vs. St. Louis 1/9

    McCown was not pretty last week, which is the basis of my frustration. It was just such a brutal game to watch. Both those weeks btw we were WELL below our established mean of 364 yards per game, with just over 300 vs Denver and less than 300 vs St. Louis. Inability to execute on 3rd downs can also be linked to poor running, and that STUPID draw play on 3rd and 18.
    BROWNS 2017: I'M JASON LA CANFORA'S INSIDER
    "I just do not get worked up over games anymore. I realized some time ago there is no point in getting worked up over them. I have no control over the outcome, it has no impact on me personally, and I have little to no actual facts to work from on properly analyzing the results." - Masters

    "My Mother's day card always says "Mum, I love you less than I love Joe Thomas. You can't even block, for fuck sakes." - brownsdownunder

    "Don't try to make me feel dumb for my opinion. You can kiss my ass." - MalcolmBrown

    "Hue and the guys are gonna turn that Frankenstein into a Frankenfine!" - next2nothing on RGIII

    WOOF WOOF WOOF!


  22. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    Now, the "I want to see Manziel because I think the season is lost already" line of thinking makes sense to me as a fan. I'd even agree. However, if any of us were actually on that football team and talking over a Gatorade we wouldn't be saying that shit. Hell no, we'd be talking about getting our own personal shit together, playing better football, and making a run. That's what Pettine and Flip have to meet everyday; not fans being realistic about our chances.

    Again, my two cents worth.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Oh, and Browns 31 Cardinals 30. We win on a game winning FG.
    Fair enough, in this we are in the same boat.

    Maybe not the game prediction. I think the Browns will struggle to score points, maybe we can win ugly but only if the D overachieves and can put some points on the board.

    Good Guys 21-20
    BROWNS 2017: I'M JASON LA CANFORA'S INSIDER
    "I just do not get worked up over games anymore. I realized some time ago there is no point in getting worked up over them. I have no control over the outcome, it has no impact on me personally, and I have little to no actual facts to work from on properly analyzing the results." - Masters

    "My Mother's day card always says "Mum, I love you less than I love Joe Thomas. You can't even block, for fuck sakes." - brownsdownunder

    "Don't try to make me feel dumb for my opinion. You can kiss my ass." - MalcolmBrown

    "Hue and the guys are gonna turn that Frankenstein into a Frankenfine!" - next2nothing on RGIII

    WOOF WOOF WOOF!


  23. #47
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    Keeping in mind the QB's I listed that the Cards have played....they have given up the 13th most passes over 20 yards...and tied for the 8th most passes over 40 yards...oh, and they are tied with the Browns with only 12 sacks on the year.

    Sorry if I am not cringing on this defense. I think the Browns match up pretty well that way...I am however VERY scared of the offense.
    Football is all about synergy. Replace a poor player with a great player and watch the surrounding players suddenly seem vastly improved. When you aren't covering for someone else, you can do YOUR JOB better.



  24. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fooleeze View Post
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    "We're not converting third downs" Well, as a matter of fact, we're ranked #7 in the NFL in 3rd down conversion percentage at 44.1%. (Get ready, Sunday will be frustrating, Atlanta is #3 in the league with 46.1%). I've also heard stats about how McCown is one of the top QBs in the league in 3rd down QB rating.

    But Sunday won't be fun unless this Defense learns how to make some stops. Arizona's offense is ranking at the top of almost every category.
    Browns are having a lot of trouble scoring TDs in the red zone. That's where having all the midget WRs hurts them. And then there is the bigger issue: mediocre running game.

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