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Thread: Browns vs Cardinals

  1. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enigmatic Evil View Post
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    I have consistently and repeatedly argued that McCown is trending downward to the point that his hot start will be all but mitigated in short order.

    Vs: Denver 6/15
    Vs. St. Louis 1/9

    McCown was not pretty last week, which is the basis of my frustration. It was just such a brutal game to watch. Both those weeks btw we were WELL below our established mean of 364 yards per game, with just over 300 vs Denver and less than 300 vs St. Louis. Inability to execute on 3rd downs can also be linked to poor running, and that STUPID draw play on 3rd and 18.
    I'd tend to agree. We saw this last year with Hoyer, who tended to burn out as the season wore on, making a lot of errant throws, even when not under pressure. it could be the wear and tear of taking all these QB sacks and hits -- the Browns are among the worst in the NFL in these categories -- may be taking its toll on MCown.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enigmatic Evil View Post
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    I'll bite... and counter first with I've yet to see one true rebuke/defense of our QB play outside the platitude of 'top ten QB stats' which is rather weak and baseless to me when our offense is scoring 21ppg (which is bottom 1/4 in the NFL btw). What is McCown doing that is helping this team win football games? Other than seemingly amassing yardage in the fourth quarter when the game's out of reach... 8 TD's in 6 games, it's not great, but yeah it's not shit. I'll give you that.

    Horrible run D: It is what it is, but no excuse for mediocre QB play.

    Inability to limit big plays: Again, I don't see how this dismisses criticism of the offense/QB/what have you.

    Inability to run the football: This is the biggest one to me. I said in the other thread that Crow was giving me Richardson flashbacks last week, but IMO when the offense seems so content shooting itself in the foot with dump-off's or short routes, and then cannot capitalize with the run game, it's like a cyclical perpetuation problem which results in a 3-and-out...

    Rookie OC errors: Is it really OC error, or is it failure of execution? We haven't seen a ton of head scratching plays, I'd argue, compared to last season with Shannahan.

    Penalties: That's discipline, and it's on both sides of the ball... but again, when you're 3rd and 18 (because of penalties) and you run a fucking HB draw... okay that may be a rookie OC error

    Fumbles: Self explanatory. Manziel has 4, McCown 6, consider Manziel's limited play.

    Now I have argued why Manziel is NOT better than McCown (see my Megathread post) but simply put. I've seen enough of McCown. In the words of Coach Green. He is who we thought he would be... Pretty good versus below average defenses, and shit against good ones.
    Great post that sums up the problems. The fact the Browns lack playmakers on both sides of the ball hurts, too. WE never should have gotten rid of Sheard.

  3. #51
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    Well there we have it.. just as I expected.

    A certain journalist we like to quote here, has posted (behind the wall of course) a cryptic synopsis.

    Long story short.. form my interpretation, that game may have been the tipping point in the coaching staff losing the locker room.

    In addition to that the FO was going for a zone-blocking OL to run that scheme... but the staff is using more power run concepts.. causeing the scheme to sputter.

    The ideologies dont match between the FO and Staff.. and the Staff wont take advantage of what the players do best.


    Its about to snowball folks

    The time has come! Our Dynasty lies ahead!

  4. #52
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    How the hell do you lose a locker room when the field was littered with player errors that literally made the game a joke.

    Penalties. "Coaches fucked me. I'm pissed."

    Not securing the ball in the proper hand. "Gabriel got screwed on that play. Fucking coaches."

    3 missed tackles on Gurley's long run. "This scheme is too damn complicated. I need to be in one where Gurley just runs into me damn it!"

    I'm just having fun here, but if I was a player on that team I'd be pissed about my own performance this past weekend. Players fucking play. On Sunday, only a few showed up to do that IMO.

    I'm your twin in one regard PGL: You desperate desire to see Manziel equates to my desperate desire for continuity at GM/HC. I'm sure its clouding my evaluation of things. You guys will have to pardon me for that.

  5. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by DawgFan View Post
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    Keeping in mind the QB's I listed that the Cards have played....they have given up the 13th most passes over 20 yards...and tied for the 8th most passes over 40 yards...oh, and they are tied with the Browns with only 12 sacks on the year.

    Sorry if I am not cringing on this defense. I think the Browns match up pretty well that way...I am however VERY scared of the offense.
    This is encouraging to me. I'd be more encouraged if we pushed the ball downfield more instead of favouring the short game, so to speak, in the passing attack. However we've been pretty good in pass protection. McCown has taken 21 sacks, I don't know how that stacks up comparatively but spread out over his starts that's 3.5 a game, if we discount week 1, because he was out early, the average is closer to 4.

    I agree though, I am more worried about their offense. The way our D has been playing, their RB's could have a big day against us. Arians has done a decent job getting them all involved in the gameplan.
    BROWNS 2017: ANALYTICS, IT'S NOT JUST SOMETHING YOU TRY IN THE BEDROOM ANYMORE!

    "I just do not get worked up over games anymore. I realized some time ago there is no point in getting worked up over them. I have no control over the outcome, it has no impact on me personally, and I have little to no actual facts to work from on properly analyzing the results." - Masters

    "Don't try to make me feel dumb for my opinion. You can kiss my ass." - MalcolmBrown

    WOOF WOOF WOOF!

  6. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    That's pretty funny.

    Gilbert and Manziel have a storied history of struggling with maturity issues. Gilbert appears to still be battling his demons while Johnny appears to have made progress. Shelton and Erving? I havent' heard a peep from either in terms of corruption/hating coaches or any other form is dissatisfaction except, in Shelton's case, his own play.
    Have you ever considered that some of that might be due to not playing?

  7. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldDawgCliff View Post
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    Have you ever considered that some of that might be due to not playing?
    That's a coin-flip kind of argument to me because in Manziel's case, until recently, the QB's ahead of him on the depth chart have played well enough to warrant his easy-going backup approach. In Gilbert's case, he's been buried on the depth chart simply because he's been outplayed. I don't think seasoning in the form of playing time would change that. CB is a notoriously difficult position to make the pro adjustment though.
    BROWNS 2017: ANALYTICS, IT'S NOT JUST SOMETHING YOU TRY IN THE BEDROOM ANYMORE!

    "I just do not get worked up over games anymore. I realized some time ago there is no point in getting worked up over them. I have no control over the outcome, it has no impact on me personally, and I have little to no actual facts to work from on properly analyzing the results." - Masters

    "Don't try to make me feel dumb for my opinion. You can kiss my ass." - MalcolmBrown

    WOOF WOOF WOOF!

  8. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldDawgCliff View Post
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    Have you ever considered that some of that might be due to not playing?
    Some of what, Gilbert and Manziel's maturity problems?

    If so, I think its patently ridiculous. Neither had a clue during their rookie camps. Neither could master the basic requirements for rookies at their position who have aspirations of playing (i.e., learning the fundamentals of playbook, scheme, etc.). Both struggled with maturity issues from the start.

    Now, if they'd been earning solid reviews for their aptitudes and attitudes during camp and then didn't play, I think you might be on to something.

    Again, my two cents.

  9. #57
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    I think it needs to be stated again that 86.7% of Gurley's yards came after contact with a Cleveland defender. I am absolutely stunned that number has been mentioned only once or twice. I am sick to my stomach that this number comes days after anonymous players complained that they system isn't allowing them to make plays, yet decent tackling would have held Gurley to 17 yards on 19 carries - instead they allowed 128 yards and 2 touchdowns because they can't fucking tackle. I wonder if those players will be putting their hands up this week. "I said it, and we fucked up, perhaps we need to take accountability and not be such pussies." Ah, a boy can dream of having players like that, but I digress. Pettine has called for everyone in the building to take "A personal inventory" to figure out what they do right, what they do wrong and how they can fix their own failings, be it in the gym or the film room - one can hope they take the opportunity to do so. If not, I hope the message gets stronger. Perhaps the chance to work independently to improve oneself is too much for our roster, and Pettine & co need to start tearing them a new one - showing them exactly what they're doing wrong and exactly how bad it's gotten. If they can't do it themselves, someone needs to do it for them.

    I again go back to the numbers I posted yesterday, and have expanded them to include every game.

    Game 1 - Defense allowed 334 yards and 4 touchdowns of offense.
    Game 2 - Defense allowed 429 yards and 2 touchdowns of offense.
    Game 3 - Defense allowed 470 yards and 3 touchdowns of offense.
    Game 4 - Defense allowed 452 yards and 3 touchdowns of offense.
    Game 5 - Defense allowed 442 yards and 1 touchdown of offense.
    Game 6 - Defense allowed 391 yards and 4 touchdowns of offense.
    Game 7 - Defense allowed 323 yards and 2 touchdowns of offense.

    That's just fucking terrible. There are twelve teams who allow 350 yards or less per game, and we've only managed that twice, and those came against the Jets and Rams, who aren't exactly good offenses. I still can't beleive we allowed four straight games with over 400 total yards, and were lucky it wasn't five straight (391).

    What makes matters worse is this is predominantly rushing yards. 151 yards per game, worst in the NFL, we allow. We also allow a second worst 5.1 yards per carry. The pass defense isn't all together terrible. It's low ranked, but we all know what rushing the football well does for a passing offense.

    I wonder how many games are similar to this Rams game, in which missed tackles have plagued us. I know the Jets and Chargers games were both singled out as examples of horrible tackling.

    What currently scares me is how fucking locked in we are. Browns free agents, for the next two seasons, are minimal. Dansby, Hitner, (D) Bryant, (T) Williams, Kruger are all locked in for years to come. We're paying Haden a lot of money. We've got contracts coming, like Gipson and K. Williams, who we'd like to sign. Barnidge, Benjamin, Schwartz and Gordon on offense. The one saving grace is we're not paying a QB, and Manziel alone doesn't run out until 2018 (When a lot of our overpaid players previously listed come off contract).

    What the above means is no real free agents are coming our way, in fact we're going to lose talent, so this all has to be done via the draft. It's a shame Farmer can't actually draft good players.

    Something has to give. This defense is terrible, and we're stuck with them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldDawgCliff View Post
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    Have you ever considered that some of that might be due to not playing?
    Good point. People forget that Manziel has hardly played in the NFL vs. McCown with his 13 years. Manziel may have a lot of upside with increased experience but we don't know because he doesn't play!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enigmatic Evil View Post
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    I'll bite... and counter first with I've yet to see one true rebuke/defense of our QB play outside the platitude of 'top ten QB stats' which is rather weak and baseless to me when our offense is scoring 21ppg (which is bottom 1/4 in the NFL btw). What is McCown doing that is helping this team win football games? Other than seemingly amassing yardage in the fourth quarter when the game's out of reach... 8 TD's in 6 games, it's not great, but yeah it's not shit. I'll give you that.

    Horrible run D: It is what it is, but no excuse for mediocre QB play.

    Inability to limit big plays: Again, I don't see how this dismisses criticism of the offense/QB/what have you.

    Inability to run the football: This is the biggest one to me. I said in the other thread that Crow was giving me Richardson flashbacks last week, but IMO when the offense seems so content shooting itself in the foot with dump-off's or short routes, and then cannot capitalize with the run game, it's like a cyclical perpetuation problem which results in a 3-and-out...

    Rookie OC errors: Is it really OC error, or is it failure of execution? We haven't seen a ton of head scratching plays, I'd argue, compared to last season with Shannahan.

    Penalties: That's discipline, and it's on both sides of the ball... but again, when you're 3rd and 18 (because of penalties) and you run a fucking HB draw... okay that may be a rookie OC error

    Fumbles: Self explanatory. Manziel has 4, McCown 6, consider Manziel's limited play.

    Now I have argued why Manziel is NOT better than McCown (see my Megathread post) but simply put. I've seen enough of McCown. In the words of Coach Green. He is who we thought he would be... Pretty good versus below average defenses, and shit against good ones.
    I'm coming back to this post again re all the penalties the Browns make. The Browns are third highest in the NFL in number of penalties and I found it interesting only one of the highest 12 teams in penalties -- the Giants -- has a winning record.
    http://www.nflpenalties.com/

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    Is there a difference between a pile of shit and a flaming pile of shit?

    2-14 or 6-10 either way is that pile of shit. I still am not aware of what the Browns plans are??? Have they stated that there grooming a future qb or what???

    We're a ht mess already and by all accunts out of the playoffs, where is the fear factr for going down in flames big or small??

    We're basically pissing away another season in hopes of what?? Salty??? Naah, growing disinterested?? Getting there.
    just beat it

  13. #61
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    I prefer dumpster fire, personally...
    BROWNS 2017: ANALYTICS, IT'S NOT JUST SOMETHING YOU TRY IN THE BEDROOM ANYMORE!

    "I just do not get worked up over games anymore. I realized some time ago there is no point in getting worked up over them. I have no control over the outcome, it has no impact on me personally, and I have little to no actual facts to work from on properly analyzing the results." - Masters

    "Don't try to make me feel dumb for my opinion. You can kiss my ass." - MalcolmBrown

    WOOF WOOF WOOF!

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    This team has noooooo direction.


    Mike pettine has not helped this team at all. This team was better before he and farmer got here.

    I really hope manziel gordon ezekiel elliot and braxton miller are all starting on our offense.

    If not... Joey bosa turning the nfl upside down. Bosa needs 4-3. No more 3-4 we dont have the players

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    Kruger shelton cooper bosa

    Mingo kirksey dansby

    Ifo gibson poyer haden

    Tramon at nickle and whitner in on running downs... Short yardage and redzone.

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    Arizona's going to sick Patrick Peterson on Benjamin and neutralize us the same way that the Rams just did. It's kind of scary that shutting Benjamin down is all it takes to shut the whole offense down, but it makes sense. We have no other threats at WR that can stretch the field.

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    Interesting development in AZ...

    Playing on Monday means a short week this week, though, and Brown’s ability to play against the Cleveland team that shares a name with him is in doubt. Brown missed a second straight practice on Thursday and coach Bruce Arians hinted on Wednesday afternoon that the team might hold him back with a bye coming in Week Nine.

    “We’re trying to get him well instead of aggravating him,” Arians said, via the Arizona Republic.
    Football is all about synergy. Replace a poor player with a great player and watch the surrounding players suddenly seem vastly improved. When you aren't covering for someone else, you can do YOUR JOB better.



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    Quote Originally Posted by DawgFan View Post
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    Interesting development in AZ...
    Brown is their best receiver, in my opinion. As Gruden noted the other night, many call him a young Harrison. This game Sunday will be no cakewalk for Arizona

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    Quote Originally Posted by pl4tinum View Post
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    Arizona's going to sick Patrick Peterson on Benjamin and neutralize us the same way that the Rams just did. It's kind of scary that shutting Benjamin down is all it takes to shut the whole offense down, but it makes sense. We have no other threats at WR that can stretch the field.
    I think Johnson and Barnidge again play a key role for the Browns. The key is the run. Gotta run against Arizona or their talented front 7 will crush McCown.

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    Further good news.

    Looks like Haden, Gipson, and Robertson will all be back on the field for the Browns.

    Haden coming back means T.Williams gets to go back to the #2 CB role...Desir can come in on dime protection...and Gipson coming back means Bademosi and Poyer are back to backup roles. That is huge.

    Robertson gives the Browns another young guy to rotate in...and I do believe he is the best LB against the run (somebody can check that for me).

    That is 3 of our key defensive players that were out last week back on the field...and one of AZ's top WR's out (likely their top).
    Football is all about synergy. Replace a poor player with a great player and watch the surrounding players suddenly seem vastly improved. When you aren't covering for someone else, you can do YOUR JOB better.



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    Johnson has to get involved. Manziel would open up for duke 5x more then mccown. Manziels legs change everything

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    Quote Originally Posted by DawgFan View Post
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    Further good news.

    Looks like Haden, Gipson, and Robertson will all be back on the field for the Browns.

    Haden coming back means T.Williams gets to go back to the #2 CB role...Desir can come in on dime protection...and Gipson coming back means Bademosi and Poyer are back to backup roles. That is huge.

    Robertson gives the Browns another young guy to rotate in...and I do believe he is the best LB against the run (somebody can check that for me).

    That is 3 of our key defensive players that were out last week back on the field...and one of AZ's top WR's out (likely their top).
    I think you are right re Robertson and the run. But the Browns LBs overall are below NFL average standards, in my view.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enigmatic Evil View Post
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    That's a coin-flip kind of argument to me because in Manziel's case, until recently, the QB's ahead of him on the depth chart have played well enough to warrant his easy-going backup approach. In Gilbert's case, he's been buried on the depth chart simply because he's been outplayed. I don't think seasoning in the form of playing time would change that. CB is a notoriously difficult position to make the pro adjustment though.
    EE, I'm disagreeing with part of your post, not all of it. CB is not a difficult transition from college to pros. I would say more rookie CBs start than any other position. This is not directed at you EE. But, I' sick of hearing the excuses for Browns high draft picks. Carr started for raiders, Bridgewater for vikes, This year it's been Winston, Mariotta. Other teams start their rookies with no excuses. Lets look:
    Mingo 6th pick, part-time starter
    Gilbert 8th pick, kick-off returner
    Manziel 22nd pick, can't beat out 2 back-up QBs
    Shelton 12th pick, starter, but no impact
    Erving 1st rd pick, back-up

  24. #72
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    Gambler, I agree. Haden took a good season to grow into the role. I think that's why some are frustrated with Gilbert.
    BROWNS 2017: ANALYTICS, IT'S NOT JUST SOMETHING YOU TRY IN THE BEDROOM ANYMORE!

    "I just do not get worked up over games anymore. I realized some time ago there is no point in getting worked up over them. I have no control over the outcome, it has no impact on me personally, and I have little to no actual facts to work from on properly analyzing the results." - Masters

    "Don't try to make me feel dumb for my opinion. You can kiss my ass." - MalcolmBrown

    WOOF WOOF WOOF!

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