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Thread: Why Pettine Won't Start Manziel

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    Default Why Pettine Won't Start Manziel

    Okay, so now that the season for the Browns is all but lost, and Josh McCown has emerged in the way that he always has, not very competent journeyman, let us consider the question: What is the real reason why Pettine insists on not starting Manziel?

    Many have pointed out the need to develop first round picks and give them a chance, based on the judgement of the GM in drafting them so high. In addition, recent times when Manziel has played he has looked quite good, including one win. But yet with each new game, as predicted before the season by many, Pettine has insisted that "McCown gives us the best chance for a win." Clearly McCown does not give the Browns much of a chance of winning. The Pett apologists on this board, who post long, bombastic rationalizations, complete with many logical fallacies such as strawman arguments, ad hominem attacks, etc. will be quick to claim that "QB play is not the problem", and then point to the QBR as one of the main support of that claim. Yet QB play is more than just QBR, there are so many intangibles involved, like being able to extend a broken play and turn it into a touchdown, instead of a loss or worse, forcing the issue and causing a turnover, that don't get factored into QBR.

    And then there is the question of the double standard. When Manziel started once this season and fumbled twice, both times recovered by Browns (so didn't turn ball over), Pettine chose to focus mainly on these two fumbles and not the fact that the Browns got the win, as part of the reason to take Manziel out again. But week in and week out, McCown routinely turns the ball over at crucial times at least twice per game. Yet Pettine in post-game pressers insists that the team let McCown down, and such like that.

    Now for my latest hypotheses for why Pettine will not start Manziel:

    1. Pettine was schooled early on by Shanahan last year, who he is in awe of, that Manziel is not NFL starter material, and that has stuck in Pettine's head ever since. Stubborn-minded Pettine can't let this belief go, despite contradicting evidence.
    2. Pettine is offended by Manziel's personal behavior as not befitting of an NFL QB, or is caving under journalistic pressure from mostly local Cleveland journalists to not embarass Cleveland by starting someone who allegedly as trangressed too many times (e.g. inflatable swan, etc.) ... this is the midwest, after all.
    3. On the job preservation front, Pettine is banking on two scenarios: 1) McCown plays badly and Browns are out of contention, 2) when Browns are finally out of contention he gives Manziel his token few starts, sends in bad run first play calls, while also many players have given up late in the season, with predictable results Manziel looks bad. This insures that Pettine will not be criticized or blamed for Browns season for going so badly when the best QB was held out for more personal than footballistic reasons, thus costing the Browns' possible playoff contention (Pettine as shrewd and calculating person politicing to preserve his career at only the expense of Browns fans).


    Okay, so flame away, or hopefully even better, add your own reasons!

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    I believe its #2. Manziel does not look nor act like an old school NFL QB. I think that offends and scares Pettine. Remember flip's comment during the Tennessee game "Coaching is overrated" ? I think that thought process, that one can succeed with talent outside of a system, gives Pettine migraines.

    I HOPE its that the team really likes Manziel as their QB of the future and want to bring him along as slowly as absolutely possible while avoiding adding pressure to his life , concerned that said pressure might push him back into old habits. Hence the snaps with 2 minutes left today and 3 minutes left last week.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brownsdownunder View Post
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    Trolls are getting worse and worse.
    The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again while expecting a different result.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LHCDawgPound View Post
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    The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again while expecting a different result.
    Might be why I've been asking for some defense for the past, well, my entire life.

    But if you think Johnny can go throw 5 touchdowns and overcome the defense giving up 500 yards of offense, by all means, keep the dream alive.

    Quarterback isn't the issue, and we're just setting the kid up for failure if we do make the change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brownsdownunder View Post
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    Might be why I've been asking for some defense for the past, well, my entire life.

    But if you think Johnny can go throw 5 touchdowns and overcome the defense giving up 500 yards of offense, by all means, keep the dream alive.

    Quarterback isn't the issue, and we're just setting the kid up for failure if we do make the change.
    THAT is the only quality reason for not playing him

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    It's the only logical reason for not playing him. The bullshit conspiratorial nonsense kills me. I actually think Pettine is protecting Johnny. He knows this team just cannot handle a young player right now, and McCown is hardly surviving this shit.

    There is just no way. The team sucks too bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brownsdownunder View Post
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    It's the only logical reason for not playing him. The bullshit conspiratorial nonsense kills me. I actually think Pettine is protecting Johnny. He knows this team just cannot handle a young player right now, and McCown is hardly surviving this shit.

    There is just no way. The team sucks too bad.
    You know I owe you an apology. It seems that Manziel is so divisive that just about everyone either wants to see him NOW because he's Fran Tarkenton incarnate or believes he is the drunken cause of all evil in the world and I lumped you in with them.

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    I'm in both groups. He plays well, behaves himself for a little bit, and I think he can save the franchise. He fucks up and I think he's too fucked up to ever do any good for this team. I wanted to draft him like crazy, he was my favorite in the pre-draft process, but it didn't take long before I ended up wishing we hadn't done it.

    Overall - I just don't think he can have success here. I think he needed at least two full seasons developing and a good team around him. He won't get either here.

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    I don't think anyone believes Manziel is going to make the Browns a winning team this season.

    Carr and Bortles got beat up a lot last season. . . it made them better.

    JFF is really a rookie this season; HE threw away last season.

    JFF needs to play, but when he does, if he's not the second coming right away, people will write him off right away.

    There's no way he gets a fair shot in Cleveland, just like Colt didn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brownsdownunder View Post
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    I actually think Pettine is protecting Johnny. He knows this team just cannot handle a young player right now, and McCown is hardly surviving this shit.
    This seems very original, so you're saying that Manziel is too young to play in the NFL?

    There is just no way. The team sucks too bad.
    Yeah, as soon as reality hits you say this, we get it. But before the season, you, Grey, Masters, and your followers were saying that Browns were a playoff contender. So what has changed? Could it be the intangibles about the QB play I have already described, and most others have seen?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LHCDawgPound View Post
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    I believe its #2. Manziel does not look nor act like an old school NFL QB. I think that offends and scares Pettine. Remember flip's comment during the Tennessee game "Coaching is overrated" ? I think that thought process, that one can succeed with talent outside of a system, gives Pettine migraines.

    I HOPE its that the team really likes Manziel as their QB of the future and want to bring him along as slowly as absolutely possible while avoiding adding pressure to his life , concerned that said pressure might push him back into old habits. Hence the snaps with 2 minutes left today and 3 minutes left last week.
    I think Josh McCown has more heart than the rest of this sorry team combined, but at the bye week, after week 10, I'd make the change to Manziel. The problem, though, is that the supporting cast is mostly so weak what will we really learn about Manziel. But start him anyhow. And I think Austin Davis deserves some playing time, too. But Manziel isn't going to get a fair shot until they add two quality receivers, add a quality running back, and add some offensive linemen who know how to block. It's extraordinary to watch other teams play and watch OL actually block and open holes! We never see that with the Browns OL.

    The big shock to me -- among many shocks -- is how bad this offensive lien has been. I feel sorry for McCown.
    Last edited by AttackOffense; 11-01-2015 at 05:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Eden View Post
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    I don't think anyone believes Manziel is going to make the Browns a winning team this season.

    Carr and Bortles got beat up a lot last season. . . it made them better.

    JFF is really a rookie this season; HE threw away last season.

    JFF needs to play, but when he does, if he's not the second coming right away, people will write him off right away.

    There's no way he gets a fair shot in Cleveland, just like Colt didn't.
    Colt McCoy is a stiff. Manziel is not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackOffense View Post
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    The big shock to me -- among many shocks -- is how bad this offensive lien has been. I eel sorry for McCown.
    Picture in your mind a player like Russel Wilson or Aaron Rodgers. What stands out to you? Yes, it's great footwork, it's about extending plays, making something happen when the playbook doesn't apply. That also was something that Joe Montana was great at. But Josh McCown? He stands back there totally flat-footed, doesn't move quickly from the pocket when pressure is applied, takes too long to make a decision, takes too many sacks because of it. The offensive line can only hold on for so long, and shouldn't be blamed if this guy just can't escape pressure. Manziel on the other hand, exhibits some of the qualities of the first three mentioned. A pitty that Pettine can't see that at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Eden View Post
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    JFF needs to play, but when he does, if he's not the second coming right away, people will write him off right away.

    There's no way he gets a fair shot in Cleveland, just like Colt didn't.
    Bingo. People are waiting with pitchforks and will happily watch the kid burn. It's getting to the stage where it doesn't matter. He comes in and plays even average - it's not enough and we'll move on. He doesn't play but develops - don't matter, we'll overturn the coaching staff and move on.

    McCown, for all his failings, is turning in an impressive season. Today was another multiple touchdown game that wasn't enough. I'd go crazy watching Johnny perform like that, or worse (Which would be understandable and fine) only to be thrown under the bus because we have a nasty habit of scapegoat-ing the quarterback. How can Johnny not only match that production, but improve on it? I don't see it happening. It's unrealistic on the kid.

    In my dreamy, fairy world - Johnny develops the rest of the way out, gets a real chance to compete next year with an improved team around him, in his second year in the system, and hopefully he can win the job on his own merit as a quarterback ready to play good football, against what will undoubtedly be an easier schedule.

    Fuck if I know, though. Part of me would rather see him thrown in and blamed. Fuck it, might as well get it over and done with, and cross fingers he transcends into like the best young quarterback ever by next week.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackOffense View Post
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    I think Josh McCown has more heart than the rest of this sorry team combined, but at the bye week, after week 10, I'd make the change to Manziel. The problem, though, is that the supporting cast is mostly so weak what will we really learn about Manziel. But start him anyhow. And I think Austin Davis deserves some playing time, too. But Manziel isn't going to get a fair shot until they add two quality receivers, add a quality running back, and add some offensive linemen who know how to block. It's extraordinary to watch other teams play and watch OL actually block and open holes! We never see that with the Browns OL.

    The big shock to me -- among many shocks -- is how bad this offensive lien has been. I feel sorry for McCown.
    I hate watching other NFL teams cuz yeah I just end up in awe of what real football looks like.

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    My question is ... how many posters can I take off ignore when Johnny is gone ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by legerdemain View Post
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    This seems very original, so you're saying that Manziel is too young to play in the NFL?



    Yeah, as soon as reality hits you say this, we get it. But before the season, you, Grey, Masters, and your followers were saying that Browns were a playoff contender. So what has changed? Could it be the intangibles about the QB play I have already described, and most others have seen?
    Manziel is not too young, he's just a raw prospect that is developing into a professional player. We knew that when we got him, but we complain that it's being addressed. He's growing and evolving, refining his game, learning to play in a pro-style system within the confines while still transitioning his game to the NFL.

    For me, it's clear already in the smallest details. He doesn't look to run first, he keeps his eyes down field. His footwork and mechanics have improves. He's not afraid to hang in the pocket a little longer. He's going through his progressions better. He's beginning to be able to identify the coverage. Heck, he's not fucking up the playcalls in the huddle anymore. These are all good things. He's not sitting on his thumb and smiling at the tingling sensation. He's getting better. That's a positive, especially when this team around him (Or anyone else) is not prepared to do their part to help him, and he'll need it, because all young players do.

    Nothing changed. We knew in our hearts this team wasn't going anywhere. We simply tried to enjoy the off season and have fun with some optimism. The three of us, and many other posters, have been vocal with our unwillingness to spend 12 months per year talking about how shit this team is. We let our minds wander before the season arrives and reality comes crashing back down. It has literally NOTHING to do with Johnny, Josh or anyone else who has played quarterback for the Browns - It's simply trying to derive some pleasure from an otherwise pleasurable hobby. Not one of us thinks McCown is the future, ever was the future or was going to take us to the Superbowl. We just didn't want to sit around hating football before football made us hate it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brownsdownunder View Post
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    Bingo. People are waiting with pitchforks and will happily watch the kid burn. It's getting to the stage where it doesn't matter. He comes in and plays even average - it's not enough and we'll move on. He doesn't play but develops - don't matter, we'll overturn the coaching staff and move on.

    McCown, for all his failings, is turning in an impressive season. Today was another multiple touchdown game that wasn't enough. I'd go crazy watching Johnny perform like that, or worse (Which would be understandable and fine) only to be thrown under the bus because we have a nasty habit of scapegoat-ing the quarterback. How can Johnny not only match that production, but improve on it? I don't see it happening. It's unrealistic on the kid.

    In my dreamy, fairy world - Johnny develops the rest of the way out, gets a real chance to compete next year with an improved team around him, in his second year in the system, and hopefully he can win the job on his own merit as a quarterback ready to play good football, against what will undoubtedly be an easier schedule.

    Fuck if I know, though. Part of me would rather see him thrown in and blamed. Fuck it, might as well get it over and done with, and cross fingers he transcends into like the best young quarterback ever by next week.
    McCown has played better than I expected and better than average. Definitely in the top half of NFL QB's this year. Manziel would not be an improvement but if he had played the entire season would be much closer to McCown in passing ability an still has the advantage of mobility and making plays.

    Josh led a 9 yard drive today for the first score. The second drive was highlighted by a 5 yard slant to Duke for 50+ yards. Those are plays that JM can make. I don't think we would lose much, but I don't have all the information regarding the situation

    JM did not look as comfortable as last week. Don't know why. Seemed to short arm and aim his throws. Not really the ideal situation to analyze but was't impressed with him today.

    The season is unfolding as i feared it would. Manziel plays with the scout team until it's all over and the team packs it in and looks like hell.

    Off topic but man Dwayne Bowe is awful! Looks slow, lost and soft.

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    Dwayne Bowe is on topic. It's one reason Johnny isn't starting. Hartline and Bowe were dreadful today. Hartline dropped three (Or four, I can't remember) passes that all would have been first downs. Bowe looked worse than anyone I've ever seen.

    Johnny would have a lot more fun with Josh Gordon. Our lack of offensive weapons is a good reason to not play him. Our guys just don't make enough plays.

    The McCown interception was say. Totally on McCown, threw it into double coverage, but watching Gabriel try and go up for it around two defenders who were MUCH bigger than him was painful. Gabriel didn't stand a chance. Very different from watching Gordon soar above defenders and come down with it like it's nothing, or Mike Evans, as Johnny is very familiar with.

    It think it all ties in to one big, shitty situation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by legerdemain View Post
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    Picture in your mind a player like Russel Wilson or Aaron Rodgers. What stands out to you? Yes, it's great footwork, it's about extending plays, making something happen when the playbook doesn't apply. That also was something that Joe Montana was great at. But Josh McCown? He stands back there totally flat-footed, doesn't move quickly from the pocket when pressure is applied, takes too long to make a decision, takes too many sacks because of it. The offensive line can only hold on for so long, and shouldn't be blamed if this guy just can't escape pressure. Manziel on the other hand, exhibits some of the qualities of the first three mentioned. A pitty that Pettine can't see that at all.
    Agree that McCown is limited, but he tries so hard. Also agree that Manziel offers intangibles that, while he makes some mistakes, will also stretch the field and make some plays. that's why I advocate playing him after week 10.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brownsdownunder View Post
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    Dwayne Bowe is on topic. It's one reason Johnny isn't starting. Hartline and Bowe were dreadful today. Hartline dropped three (Or four, I can't remember) passes that all would have been first downs. Bowe looked worse than anyone I've ever seen.

    Johnny would have a lot more fun with Josh Gordon. Our lack of offensive weapons is a good reason to not play him. Our guys just don't make enough plays.

    The McCown interception was say. Totally on McCown, threw it into double coverage, but watching Gabriel try and go up for it around two defenders who were MUCH bigger than him was painful. Gabriel didn't stand a chance. Very different from watching Gordon soar above defenders and come down with it like it's nothing, or Mike Evans, as Johnny is very familiar with.

    It think it all ties in to one big, shitty situation.
    Receivers are key games today (along with good QBs) , whether it be Beckham or Cook, Green or Brown, Fitzgerald, Cooper or Cobb. Bring in a GM and head coach who understand that reality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brownsdownunder View Post
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    Our lack of offensive weapons is a good reason to not play him. Our guys just don't make enough plays.
    This reason kind of makes sense up to a point, and it gives one a warm, fuzzy feeling about Pettine. But look at the example of Carr for instance ... last year he was thrown into the fire as a first-time rookie coming out of a second rung college program and the Raiders barely even won a game. This year, with renewed personnel on both sides of the ball, as well as Carr's experience from last year, and Carr and the Raiders are thriving. Couldn't the Browns have done something similar with Manziel, or is Manziel really that fragile?

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