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Thread: Why Pettine Won't Start Manziel

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    Quote Originally Posted by legerdemain View Post
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    This reason kind of makes sense up to a point, and it gives one a warm, fuzzy feeling about Pettine. But look at the example of Carr for instance ... last year he was thrown into the fire as a first-time rookie coming out of a second rung college program and the Raiders barely even won a game. This year, with renewed personnel on both sides of the ball, as well as Carr's experience from last year, and Carr and the Raiders are thriving. Couldn't the Browns have done something similar with Manziel, or is Manziel really that fragile?
    Sorry ... Pettine is clueless about modern NFL football. He is still on the Central Bucks West HS program.

    Based on all the news reports late this PM, it appears Pettine and Farmer are soon gone and we'll be trading for draft picks for the new regime to start over. But can they properly evaluate talent? That remains to be seen.
    Last edited by AttackOffense; 11-01-2015 at 05:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by legerdemain View Post
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    This reason kind of makes sense up to a point, and it gives one a warm, fuzzy feeling about Pettine. But look at the example of Carr for instance ... last year he was thrown into the fire as a first-time rookie coming out of a second rung college program and the Raiders barely even won a game. This year, with renewed personnel on both sides of the ball, as well as Carr's experience from last year, and Carr and the Raiders are thriving. Couldn't the Browns have done something similar with Manziel, or is Manziel really that fragile?
    I personally think Carr was just better equipped. Every serious, grown up guy who has his head on straight. He's a father and a husband. Brother was a pro player and Derek said he was very familiar with pro-style offenses and what to expect as a result. He was more equipped as a traditional pocket passer. And, well, the Raiders, for all their suckage, sucked less than our team does right now.

    None of that is a shot at Johnny. I just think Derek was better equipped to handle it than Johnny was and still is. Derek last season racked up all his numbers in garbage time. I think Johnny is different, he'd try to do too much and develop terrible habits that would be detrimental to his game, and undo a lot of the development he has made.

    I think Johnny's best chance is to come in as well developed as he can more so than learning on the job the way Derek did.

    Fuck if I know, though. Perhaps not. I see the risk/reward in both, but neither strong enough to make me think Pettine and Flip are making a poor decision - if they think he's best on the bench for now, I trust their assessment.

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    Don't we have a megathread for this shit?
    Last edited by Stray Dawg; 11-01-2015 at 07:38 PM.
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    What BDU is saying actually matches up with a quote from an anonymous staffer (coach) in august.

    They essentially said (I don't have the quote in front of me) that the team doesn't have a no ugh weapons for Johnnys style of play right now. Theyre benching him to develop and protect him.

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    Uhmmm Maybe just because Johnny blows.. might be a good reason.
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    See nickers.. i don't think it's 0 Ossipee to say that without seeing him play games.

    You can't declare a player sucks in practice imho

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    #3

    Manziel needs to run shotgun fourwide and he needs to run himself.

    They try make him stay n pocket but he still needs make plays with his legs.pettine has fucked him and his confidence.

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    2017 Draft class: Garrett, Peppers, Njoku, Kizer, Ogunjobi, Collins (via trade of 103), Wilson, Johnson, Brantley, Gonzalez, Dayes
    2018 Draft picks: Extra picks - a 1st (Texans), two in 2nd (Eagles & Texans), a 4th (Panthers/A.Lee), & a 6th (Steelers/Gilbert) - 12 total
    Philly trade result: C. Coleman, Peppers, Kizer, Kessler, R. Louis, S. Coleman, Drango, Kindred, Payton, 2018 1st rndr (Texans) & 2018 2nd rndr (Eagles)

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    Quote Originally Posted by legerdemain View Post
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    Yeah, as soon as reality hits you say this, we get it. But before the season, you, Grey, Masters, and your followers were saying that Browns were a playoff contender. So what has changed? Could it be the intangibles about the QB play I have already described, and most others have seen?
    No, those aren't the reasons. Anyone who's spent 5 minutes watching the game of football knows that the reason we aren't winning has little to nothing to do with QB play.

    However, that doesn't fit your unbecoming agenda of Johnny-first, everything else second. I'm sure he has a fan club board somewhere. You should go post there. When you've learned a little about football, feel free to drop back in here.

    "Intangibles about the QB play". I'm still laughing over that one.

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    Personally, I think Pet doesn't want to tie his name to Johnny since Johnny is so polarizing.

    It's a political career move.

    He has a scapegoat for his failure in Cleveland.

    Manziel/Farmer.

    OP makes some good points.

    And this protecting manziel crap is just that... Crap.

    Manziel is going to suck like a rookie until he has played a significant amount of games whether that was last year or this year or next year.

    You can't learn how to hit a 100mph fastball without facing a 100mph fastball.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackOffense View Post
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    Agree that McCown is limited, but he tries so hard. Also agree that Manziel offers intangibles that, while he makes some mistakes, will also stretch the field and make some plays. that's why I advocate playing him after week 10.
    I don't have a dog in the fight concerning Manziel and McCown. How can this team be worse than it was 2 years ago. They had 4 first round draft picks and tons of money to spend on FAs.
    Before the season, most fans and media said their defense will be a top five defense. Now, not enough talent. Somebody screwed up big-time.
    IMO, Pettine should have pulled Josh after he took the hit from Minter. You could tell he was in pain, barely able to get up. That's when you make the decision for the player's health. It looked really bad on tv. Has nothing to do with JM being the starter, just common sense to know that your player is not capable of playing well at that point and not letting him take any more punishment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoatShoes View Post
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    You can't learn how to hit a 100mph fastball without facing a 100mph fastball.
    And you can't figure out your long term QB situation by situating your first rounder on the bench.

    If we were winning, than it make sense to stick with McCown.

    But since we're losing, despite McCown's admirable efforts, I'd think we're one more loss away from seeing if Manziel can do it.

    But what if McCown starts the rest of the way and we end up with 4-5 wins. What then? Draft a QB in the middle rounds? Assume we're ok at QB and use the McCown/Manziel plan again next year?
    2017 Draft class: Garrett, Peppers, Njoku, Kizer, Ogunjobi, Collins (via trade of 103), Wilson, Johnson, Brantley, Gonzalez, Dayes
    2018 Draft picks: Extra picks - a 1st (Texans), two in 2nd (Eagles & Texans), a 4th (Panthers/A.Lee), & a 6th (Steelers/Gilbert) - 12 total
    Philly trade result: C. Coleman, Peppers, Kizer, Kessler, R. Louis, S. Coleman, Drango, Kindred, Payton, 2018 1st rndr (Texans) & 2018 2nd rndr (Eagles)

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    Quote Originally Posted by OconRecon View Post
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    use the McCown/Manziel plan again next year?
    Please God no.
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    Attention Attention Attention Attention
    Until further notice we suck.
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    Quote Originally Posted by next2nothing View Post
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    Please God no.
    On the bright side, I think the Browns have enough talent to make significant improvement next year. With a couple of good draft picks and signing two or three stud FAs, and better coaching the Browns could turn it around next year.
    Isn't it ironic that Pettine and Farmer claimed to be building a team that would be strong on defense and an offense that can run the ball.
    And those two things they completely SUCK AT.

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    I'm pretty convinced, after watching the beating McCown took, that the reason Pettine won't start Manziel is because he HATES Josh McCown and won't pull him until he's pronounced dead on the field.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OzDawg View Post
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    I'm pretty convinced, after watching the beating McCown took, that the reason Pettine won't start Manziel is because he HATES Josh McCown and won't pull him until he's pronounced dead on the field.
    Yeah, could happen sooner than expected on Thursday Night football coming up when my main man Vontaze Burfict says hello to one Josh McClown. (just kidding of course , but seriously, is Pett going to put him in again so soon for that sort of treatment, it'll be like the tiger and the wildebeast ....)
    Last edited by legerdemain; 11-02-2015 at 12:25 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gambler View Post
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    I don't have a dog in the fight concerning Manziel and McCown. How can this team be worse than it was 2 years ago. They had 4 first round draft picks and tons of money to spend on FAs.
    Before the season, most fans and media said their defense will be a top five defense. Now, not enough talent. Somebody screwed up big-time.
    IMO, Pettine should have pulled Josh after he took the hit from Minter. You could tell he was in pain, barely able to get up. That's when you make the decision for the player's health. It looked really bad on tv. Has nothing to do with JM being the starter, just common sense to know that your player is not capable of playing well at that point and not letting him take any more punishment.
    ^ As above ^

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    No, those aren't the reasons. Anyone who's spent 5 minutes watching the game of football knows that the reason we aren't winning has little to nothing to do with QB play.

    However, that doesn't fit your unbecoming agenda of Johnny-first, everything else second. I'm sure he has a fan club board somewhere. You should go post there. When you've learned a little about football, feel free to drop back in here.

    "Intangibles about the QB play". I'm still laughing over that one.


    HUH? You do know we're talking about American Football right??? The QB holds the ball too long and gets beat up so the offensive line looks like shit. The QB either cant or wont throw the ball deep, no defenses are concerned about his ability to stretch the field so they can sit on the run, the running game looks like shit. When clutch moments arrive in the game the QB throws an interception (yesterday and in Denver come to mind immediately).


    Thats not to mention the intangibles factor. Coach Pett believes in intangibles. Thats why they jettisoned Dquell and TJ Ward because they brought a losing culture with them, and then in an historic facepalm move brings in a loser QB with 13 years of established losing to extend the losing culture.

    The QB is a HUGE part of why the team is losing this year , if you've watched 5 minutes of the CLeveland Browns play you'd know that.

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    Josh's pride and work ethic will never allow him to tap himself on the head and take himself out.

    HOWEVER, all of the arm dangling, rib leaning, head holding, partial limping, shoulder grasping - he clearly was trying to tell the bench "I'm dying out here, but will soldier on, until you tell me not to".

    There's a lot I love about McCown's keep-going attitude; it's an admirable quality, but the HC needed to step in.
    2017 Draft class: Garrett, Peppers, Njoku, Kizer, Ogunjobi, Collins (via trade of 103), Wilson, Johnson, Brantley, Gonzalez, Dayes
    2018 Draft picks: Extra picks - a 1st (Texans), two in 2nd (Eagles & Texans), a 4th (Panthers/A.Lee), & a 6th (Steelers/Gilbert) - 12 total
    Philly trade result: C. Coleman, Peppers, Kizer, Kessler, R. Louis, S. Coleman, Drango, Kindred, Payton, 2018 1st rndr (Texans) & 2018 2nd rndr (Eagles)

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    Quote Originally Posted by OconRecon View Post
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    Josh's pride and work ethic will never allow him to tap himself on the head and take himself out.

    HOWEVER, all of the arm dangling, rib leaning, head holding, partial limping, shoulder grasping - he clearly was trying to tell the bench "I'm dying out here, but will soldier on, until you tell me not to".

    There's a lot I love about McCown's keep-going attitude; it's an admirable quality, but the HC needed to step in.
    Yeah the more I read about this policy of letting the players pull themselves out of the games the more I am questioning Pettine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LHCDawgPound View Post
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    HUH? You do know we're talking about American Football right??? The QB holds the ball too long and gets beat up so the offensive line looks like shit. The QB either cant or wont throw the ball deep, no defenses are concerned about his ability to stretch the field so they can sit on the run, the running game looks like shit. When clutch moments arrive in the game the QB throws an interception (yesterday and in Denver come to mind immediately).


    Thats not to mention the intangibles factor. Coach Pett believes in intangibles. Thats why they jettisoned Dquell and TJ Ward because they brought a losing culture with them, and then in an historic facepalm move brings in a loser QB with 13 years of established losing to extend the losing culture.

    The QB is a HUGE part of why the team is losing this year , if you've watched 5 minutes of the CLeveland Browns play you'd know that.
    Baloney man, utter baloney.

    I'll try this from another angle. Would you stack rank the problem areas that have contributed to the losing this year? Let's see if we can find any common ground from there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    Baloney man, utter baloney.

    I'll try this from another angle. Would you stack rank the problem areas that have contributed to the losing this year? Let's see if we can find any common ground from there.
    1. Head coach and defensive coaching which gives us...

    2. Lack of a run defense, the most basic flaw in this team. Can anybody set the damn edge??

    2. Overall defensive scheme. The Browns give up far too many chunk plays. The scheme does not match up with the personnel.

    3. Lack of a pass rush, a major contributor to #2. You cannot play press coverage effectively when the opposing QB has all day to let routes develop.

    4. Lack of a ground game thanks to the.......

    5. Offensive line, is there a more overrated group in all of football? If there is it's the.....

    6. Defensive secondary. Joe Haden has a great future as dead money against the cap.

    I think Flip and the skill position coaches have done pretty well considering. My only quibble with McCown is that HE IS 36 FREAKING YEARS OLD!! Ohh....and he lacks pocket awareness, takes too may sacks and unnecessary hits which you think you would have figured out if YOU ARE 36 FREAKING YEARS OLD!!!

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    Appreciate the take Brutal and while I may quibble on the various points/rankings I see a lot of alignment in our views. The fundamental point here is that QB play, while not certainly elite/perfect, has been far from the limiting factor.

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