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Thread: Interesting Theory Based only on rumors and speculation. Pettine V Farmer

  1. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlaygroundLegend View Post
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    Think about it guys.. honestly.

    Mathmatically.

    What are the chances 4 first round draft picks, who had 4 first round grades from scouts everywhere turn out to be this bad and not even playable?

    Seriously..

    Depending on what side of the fence you are on you could say:

    A: Well Ray Farmer is THAT bad..

    B: Mike Pettine is that bad and/or just wont play them..

    It diesnt make sense guys, it really doesnt. It HAS to be Pettine. Seriously
    Agreed. It isn't like these guys were not graded highly by other organizations. You can make a case Irving might have been a reach but not an awful one. The problem seems to center on coaching. If you can go 2-6 with veterans you cannot do much worse with young guys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PlaygroundLegend View Post
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    A: Well Ray Farmer is THAT bad..

    B: Mike Pettine is that bad and/or just wont play them..

    It diesnt make sense guys, it really doesnt. It HAS to be Pettine. Seriously
    Why does it HAVE to be Pettine? Why can't you accept that it might be option A? Is it really that unfathomable that Ray Farmer botched 4 first round selections? I don't think it is. And I'm not even saying that I don't like Ray Farmer or that I think he needs to be fired. I think he just botched 4 first round draft picks (potentially. In my opinion the jury is still out on Manziel. I think Shelton will be fine, and Cam Erving will step in once Mack is out. So let's not overreact because we're mad that the team is losing right now).

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    Shelton's playing. He's a rookie and he's been far from impact while playing solid. He's a NT so we can't expect a lot of impact plays but he was drafted very high for a NT. Is it outlandish to think that his snap counts/impact plays will go up with experience?

    Erving. He was a depth pick and a head scratching one to most, me included. The OL has not been playing well, but that's been a unit wide problem in my view. Stated another way, does anyone actually think putting a rookie interior OL in for Greco (or pick your favorite) would turn the knob?

    Manziel. Been discussed ad nauseum. Last year was an abortion all the way around; not worth debating blame placement. This year the guy ahead of him has been posting top 10 passing numbers and leading a position group that has been one of, if not the, strongest performing groups this year.

    Gilbert. I watched him play in preseason and he continued to look lost to me. Simple press coverage or basic man coverage seem to be beyond him. He was torched repeatedly. The guy, while an elite athlete, looks like a huge bust.

    Where's the conspiracy theory? I'm not seeing it as the simpler explanation is that these guys are either a) young/developing or b) over-drafted/busts. Reeks of the GM not the HC to me.

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    How else do you explain players go from looking good to looking bad?

    Anjother thing is how do you justify not even putting these high draft picks in the game?

    We all ASSUME their bad because they dont play.. but what if Pettine is just a bad evaluator? What if theyre "gamers" or they dont benefit from the scheme?

    Theres so many variables.

    I dont believe these players dont have the talent, because I have SEEN their talent. I supported the drafting of most of these players.

    The time has come! Our Dynasty lies ahead!

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    Quote Originally Posted by PlaygroundLegend View Post
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    Think about it guys.. honestly.

    Mathmatically.

    What are the chances 4 first round draft picks, who had 4 first round grades from scouts everywhere turn out to be this bad and not even playable?

    Seriously..

    Depending on what side of the fence you are on you could say:

    A: Well Ray Farmer is THAT bad..

    B: Mike Pettine is that bad and/or just wont play them..

    It diesnt make sense guys, it really doesnt. It HAS to be Pettine. Seriously
    Jury is still very much out on whether these 4 are wash outs, plus some of the second round picks like Orchard and Cooper. I wonder how they would be functioning in a Belichick system, for example. I think all 4 have talent, but the issue is that when the Browns took Gilbert, Erving and Manziel there were much better options available for them that would have helped the team a lot more. Like staying put in 2014 and taking Khalil Mack, then drafting Derek Carr later in the first round.

    - - - Updated - - -

    [QUOTE=PlaygroundLegend;400323]Think about it guys.. honestly.
    Last edited by AttackOffense; 11-02-2015 at 11:45 AM.

  6. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlaygroundLegend View Post
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    How else do you explain players go from looking good to looking bad?

    Anjother thing is how do you justify not even putting these high draft picks in the game?

    We all ASSUME their bad because they dont play.. but what if Pettine is just a bad evaluator? What if theyre "gamers" or they dont benefit from the scheme?

    Theres so many variables.

    I dont believe these players dont have the talent, because I have SEEN their talent. I supported the drafting of most of these players.
    Out of those 4 player, the only one that I think is bad is Gilbert and that is based on seeing him play badly. The other three are young, developing guys. I think you're really reaching for a conspiracy theory here. As far as explaining why a guy would go from playing well to not playing well? It happens all the time. These guys are all first or second-year players. Literally nothing out of the ordinary happening here with them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PlaygroundLegend View Post
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    How else do you explain players go from looking good to looking bad?

    Anjother thing is how do you justify not even putting these high draft picks in the game?

    We all ASSUME their bad because they dont play.. but what if Pettine is just a bad evaluator? What if theyre "gamers" or they dont benefit from the scheme?

    Theres so many variables.

    I dont believe these players dont have the talent, because I have SEEN their talent. I supported the drafting of most of these players.
    PGL, I love you, man, I do. And I appreciate your heart and sincerity and belief in your scouting acumen.

    But this idea that Pettine is losing on purpose is craziness. Among the myriad reasons this simply couldn't work in the real world are these: if the players playing thought the coach was holding out the best players, he'd have a mutiny (and we've seen/heard no signs of that); the players playing would have to be doing a WORSE job than those guys (and it's not happening; everyone playing at those positions has been decent to good); and there is a whole staff of professional coaches who he'd have to explain his rationale to and/or get them to go along with him in this insane idea.

    But most important is this: NFL coaches want to win. Period. They want to stay head coaches and they want to get paid.

    And that's not even touching on the whole human side of things, i.e., you'd have to believe Pettine totally disses those guys that he sees EVERY DAY FOR SIX MONTHS.

    It's unfathomable. WAY more unfathomable than Farmer (or whomever) doesn't know how to draft.

    Hell, for all we know, Pettine banged the table with his head demanding Farmer take Khalil Mack but Farmer refused and took the extra pick instead. Then, when asked for his second choice, he may have said Gilbert.

    That is an entirely plausible explanation that would still be ENTIRELY FARMER'S FAULT for not taking Mack.

    Similarly, when the second pick came up, Pettine may have said "I'm not a QB guru, you guys pick the best QB" and then they picked Manziel. Maybe Pettine hated the pick or maybe only LATER did Pettine see how terrible Manziel is and that's why we're here now.

    Point is, it's ridiculous to blame coaches for anything but the results on the field. The Browns are not winning so Pettine is to blame.

    But Farmer owns the four (currently) wasted first round picks.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by PlaygroundLegend View Post
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    How else do you explain players go from looking good to looking bad?

    Anjother thing is how do you justify not even putting these high draft picks in the game?

    We all ASSUME their bad because they dont play.. but what if Pettine is just a bad evaluator? What if theyre "gamers" or they dont benefit from the scheme?

    Theres so many variables.

    I dont believe these players dont have the talent, because I have SEEN their talent. I supported the drafting of most of these players.
    PGL, I love you, man, I do. And I appreciate your heart and sincerity and belief in your scouting acumen.

    But this idea that Pettine is losing on purpose is craziness. Among the myriad reasons this simply couldn't work in the real world are these: if the players playing thought the coach was holding out the best players, he'd have a mutiny (and we've seen/heard no signs of that); the players playing would have to be doing a WORSE job than those guys (and it's not happening; everyone playing at those positions has been decent to good); and there is a whole staff of professional coaches who he'd have to explain his rationale to and/or get them to go along with him in this insane idea.

    But most important is this: NFL coaches want to win. Period. They want to stay head coaches and they want to get paid.

    And that's not even touching on the whole human side of things, i.e., you'd have to believe Pettine totally disses those guys that he sees EVERY DAY FOR SIX MONTHS.

    It's unfathomable. WAY more unfathomable than Farmer (or whomever) doesn't know how to draft.

    Hell, for all we know, Pettine banged the table with his head demanding Farmer take Khalil Mack but Farmer refused and took the extra pick instead. Then, when asked for his second choice, he may have said Gilbert.

    That is an entirely plausible explanation that would still be ENTIRELY FARMER'S FAULT for not taking Mack.

    Similarly, when the second pick came up, Pettine may have said "I'm not a QB guru, you guys pick the best QB" and then they picked Manziel. Maybe Pettine hated the pick or maybe only LATER did Pettine see how terrible Manziel is and that's why we're here now.

    Point is, it's ridiculous to blame coaches for anything but the results on the field. The Browns are not winning so Pettine is to blame.

    But Farmer owns the four (currently) wasted first round picks.

  8. #32
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    I agree we saw Gilbert play badly in practice...

    But Mike Pettine played Bandemosi over Gilbert yesterday... Bandemosi who we saw get tore up in pre-season worse than Gilbert.


    We have hardly AT ALL seen Gilbert play in the regular season..

    and one of the few times we did see him, we saw him return an interception for a touchdown.

    The time has come! Our Dynasty lies ahead!

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    Quote Originally Posted by PlaygroundLegend View Post
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    How else do you explain players go from looking good to looking bad?
    When did these players look good? You aren't really talking about their college careers. Are you?

    Quote Originally Posted by PlaygroundLegend View Post
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    Anjother thing is how do you justify not even putting these high draft picks in the game?
    Shelton plays. Erving couldn't beat out Greco. Manziel we should leave out of this discussion as we've beaten that one to death. Gilbert couldn't cover guys in preseason who are now out of football.

    That's how.

    Quote Originally Posted by PlaygroundLegend View Post
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    We all ASSUME their bad because they dont play.. but what if Pettine is just a bad evaluator? What if theyre "gamers" or they dont benefit from the scheme?
    I think Shelton's good and is going to be really good. I assume Erving's good but couldn't crack the starting line-up. Dumb pick anyway. Manziel may be great. Gilbert's looked like complete shit when he's played. His own teammates called him out mercilessly last year. I don't know why anyone thinks he should just be tossed out there. He plays a position that requires a ton of discipline and trust; damn the physical ability. He screams bust at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by PlaygroundLegend View Post
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    Theres so many variables.

    I dont believe these players dont have the talent, because I have SEEN their talent. I supported the drafting of most of these players.
    Fair enough. I think we've all "supported" drafted players who haven't been able to cut it in the NFL many times before.

    Look PGL, you may be right on all this. I just don't see how you can build a logic tree to try and "prove" the theory. The evidence we have isn't highly supportive. Gilbert's looked like hell when he has played and has a very public maturity issue "tag". Manziel was thought by many as a high risk/reward pick. A young kid who's learning curve was going to be very steep. Shelton's playing and playing pretty well. Erving was drafted without a logical place to start his rookie year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangelo930 View Post
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    ...is this a real discussion? Why would Pettine purposely sabotage his own team? This would be a compelling storyline aside from the fact that it makes no sense. But I guess these are the types of conversations we have after so many years of ineptitude and in the midst of another lost season.
    He didn't.

    But his way has failed miserably.

    And by making adjustments now-he would be publicly admitting that, thus taking responsibility.

    Or he can try to lean on the farmer and manziel circus as his scapegoat.

    I

  11. #35
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    The folks that hire coaches in the NFL happen to be experts. Would the best way to audition for your next job be a butchered hatchet job of your current team? Seems counter intuitive.

    Its a dangerous game you are suggesting Pettine is playing. Purposefully go against the better pure football decision to try and save your reputation for the next gig?

    The NFL is a very small community. I doubt there are ANY secrets. 53 players, dozens of coaches, dozens of front office types. If Pettine is purposefully making bad football decisions that will be well known within the circle of decision makers for coaching jobs.

    Now, he may simply be bad at his job. That's a different argument but one that can be made. Alternatively, he may be good at his job and has been dealt a sub par roster; including a potentially over-drafted QB prospect. This third scenario that he's purposefully making poor football decisions as a method of trying out for his next job just seems nonsensical.

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    I don't know why, but this comes to mind when I read this discussion...

    BROWNS 2017: FUCK IT, DUDE... LET'S GO BOWLING

    "I just do not get worked up over games anymore. I realized some time ago there is no point in getting worked up over them. I have no control over the outcome, it has no impact on me personally, and I have little to no actual facts to work from on properly analyzing the results." - Masters

    "Don't try to make me feel dumb for my opinion. You can kiss my ass." - MalcolmBrown

    WOOF WOOF WOOF!

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    I wish there was a way I could put this without coming off like a Lunatic.

    Im not saying Pettine is losing on purpose.

    What Im saying.. is that Pettine knows the losing is happening regardless, he is BRACING for an upheavel by re-directing the blame. He wants to make it look like the reason WHY we are losing is the players he has... so he benches the ones Farmer gave him..

    In reality, Pettine will lose no matter what players he has because of his coaching/staff inadequacies.


    Another theory doesnt really put any blame or fault on anyone, it is essentially that Farmer and Pettine are both good at what they do, they just arent on the same page.

    The time has come! Our Dynasty lies ahead!

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    To me, it just seems like grasping at straws to find some reason this team is struggling so much when the reality seems much more simple...

    This team just isn't that good. I hate to say it, but it's the honest to god truth. Journeyman QB, underachieving veterans, overachieving rookies, lack of perennial play-makers on both sides of the ball...

    However it does seem like you're reluctant to castigate Farmer and eager to throw Pettine under the bus, it's okay if you've got the bias. I'm personally done with both of them.
    BROWNS 2017: FUCK IT, DUDE... LET'S GO BOWLING

    "I just do not get worked up over games anymore. I realized some time ago there is no point in getting worked up over them. I have no control over the outcome, it has no impact on me personally, and I have little to no actual facts to work from on properly analyzing the results." - Masters

    "Don't try to make me feel dumb for my opinion. You can kiss my ass." - MalcolmBrown

    WOOF WOOF WOOF!

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    I wont lie EE, I have a bias.

    Which is why I brought this up.

    I brought it up because so many people have the OPPOSING bias.

    To many poeple, Pettine cant be touched, he's on a pedestal.

    Im really just trying to create awareness of the possibility that... what if it is all because of Pettine?

    The time has come! Our Dynasty lies ahead!

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    Quote Originally Posted by PlaygroundLegend View Post
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    o many poeple, Pettine cant be touched, he's on a pedestal.
    I don't think that's fair PGL, at least on this board.

    You probably lump me into the pedestal group. I've likely been coming off as pro-Pettine primarily as a reflex against the anti-Pettine rhetoric he's been faced with since we drafted Manziel and my larger bias (and blind-spot!): the overwhelming desire to settle in with a coach/system for a few years. You know, like the good teams do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PlaygroundLegend View Post
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    I wont lie EE, I have a bias.

    Which is why I brought this up.

    I brought it up because so many people have the OPPOSING bias.

    To many poeple, Pettine cant be touched, he's on a pedestal.

    Im really just trying to create awareness of the possibility that... what if it is all because of Pettine?
    I think with each passing game the Pet fan club gets smaller, as it should. Results matter.

    I doubt that any sane person thinks Pettine is screwing things up on purpose. The fact is he is just a screw up, a guy in over his head. And as guys in over their head often do in every walk of life they they panic, they try to orchestrate a plausible scenario where blame for the screw ups can be deflected away from them. Money, ego, and their future in the profession are on the line.

    When your 2-11 in your last 13 games, and YOUR defense is leading the way in ineptness its really time to go. Nothing you can do will erase the fact you have failed in the most basic way at your job. You have to go and allow the team to find out what is salvageable and what needs to be fixed short and long term.
    Last edited by brutalfacts; 11-02-2015 at 01:03 PM.

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    Really? I find far more people critical of our coach than the GM, but maybe that's just me. I don't think that sole responsibility is really logically responsible to argue, given that both have such a crucial role in crafting this team. To blame one without the other is just a fools errand, that's why I say it's grasping at straws to find a reason when the answer is much simpler... Sucktitude.
    BROWNS 2017: FUCK IT, DUDE... LET'S GO BOWLING

    "I just do not get worked up over games anymore. I realized some time ago there is no point in getting worked up over them. I have no control over the outcome, it has no impact on me personally, and I have little to no actual facts to work from on properly analyzing the results." - Masters

    "Don't try to make me feel dumb for my opinion. You can kiss my ass." - MalcolmBrown

    WOOF WOOF WOOF!

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    Am I the only one who remembers things like the odd timings of the Pryor release and Austin Davis extension?

    There is a mountain of evidence that this fued is very much in play.

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    Or signing Dwayne Bowe?

    Wait who are you singling out here BS? :P
    BROWNS 2017: FUCK IT, DUDE... LET'S GO BOWLING

    "I just do not get worked up over games anymore. I realized some time ago there is no point in getting worked up over them. I have no control over the outcome, it has no impact on me personally, and I have little to no actual facts to work from on properly analyzing the results." - Masters

    "Don't try to make me feel dumb for my opinion. You can kiss my ass." - MalcolmBrown

    WOOF WOOF WOOF!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enigmatic Evil View Post
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    Or signing Dwayne Bowe?

    Wait who are you singling out here BS? :P
    No one. I'm just saying, we have leaks galore and about a thousand other things that suggest there is a active fued.

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    Feud? Okay, I'll buy that one as worth debating. That kind of stuff happens all the time in any organization.

    That's a big shift from Pettine trying out for his next job by making bad football decisions in his current one.

    Pardon me if I struggle to keep up. The target seems to be ever in motion BS.

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    We literally signed a qb to an extension days before our gm came back from a suspension from texting the sidelines about who the coach was playing at quarterback which the NFL just mysteriously found out about.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    Feud? Okay, I'll buy that one as worth debating. That kind of stuff happens all the time in any organization.

    That's a big shift from Pettine trying out for his next job by making bad football decisions in his current one.

    Pardon me if I struggle to keep up. The target seems to be ever in motion BS.
    Not that far apart.

    People work their angles.

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    I don't think pettine is purposely making bad football decisions.

    I think he's refusing to acknowledge his mistakes in an attempt to save his career.

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