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Thread: Interesting Theory Based only on rumors and speculation. Pettine V Farmer

  1. #49
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    is there a franchise player in the upcoming draft? A sure fire game changer?

    I ask because its almost too coincidental that McCown was still in the game when it was obvious to everyone that a change was needed.

    Its the conspiracy theorists playground when suggesting they are doing everything possible to not win.
    just beat it

  2. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoatShoes View Post
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    We literally signed a qb to an extension days before our gm came back from a suspension from texting the sidelines about who the coach was playing at quarterback which the NFL just mysteriously found out about.
    I still think that worm Shannahan ratted out Farmer. To think, it was likely one of the focal points of his power point presentation.
    BROWNS 2017: FUCK IT, DUDE... LET'S GO BOWLING

    "I just do not get worked up over games anymore. I realized some time ago there is no point in getting worked up over them. I have no control over the outcome, it has no impact on me personally, and I have little to no actual facts to work from on properly analyzing the results." - Masters

    "Don't try to make me feel dumb for my opinion. You can kiss my ass." - MalcolmBrown

    WOOF WOOF WOOF!

  3. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoatShoes View Post
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    I don't think pettine is purposely making bad football decisions.

    I think he's refusing to acknowledge his mistakes in an attempt to save his career.
    So he's not mature or he's unintelligent or he's vindictive. Some type of major leadership disability then?

    I mean refusing to acknowledge mistakes (which following your logic implies he's continuing to MAKE mistakes) is the anti-method of saving one's career.

  4. #52
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    Probably was shanahan.

    Who leaked the manziel found drunk in his room story?

    Who put manziel in locker room timeout in the last game?

    Why wasn't he just suspended?

    Pettine is a player in these things...

  5. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    So he's not mature or he's unintelligent or he's vindictive. Some type of major leadership disability then?

    I mean refusing to acknowledge mistakes (which following your logic implies he's continuing to MAKE mistakes) is the anti-method of saving one's career.
    This is common practice in politics.

    Like Obama refusing to acknowledge the success of the surge in Iraq.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoatShoes View Post
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    This is common practice in politics.

    Like Obama refusing to acknowledge the success of the surge in Iraq.
    Okay. Its not common practice in any for-profit venture I'm aware of. At least not as a way to build one's resume for their next job.

    Term limits and all.

    I'll leave you guys to debate it. Its not making logical sense to me.

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    ok.

    'He gives us a chance to win'

  8. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoatShoes View Post
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    ok.

    'He gives us a chance to win'
    That seems cheap, but whatever. Sorry, you just haven't convinced me that Pettine is purposefully making lesser football decisions to either a) facilitate his next career move or b) out of some personal failing of being unable to acknowledge a mistake. Make stronger arguments or simply discount me as a lesser intellect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PlaygroundLegend View Post
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    How else do you explain players go from looking good to looking bad?

    Anjother thing is how do you justify not even putting these high draft picks in the game?

    We all ASSUME their bad because they dont play.. but what if Pettine is just a bad evaluator? What if theyre "gamers" or they dont benefit from the scheme?

    Theres so many variables.

    I dont believe these players dont have the talent, because I have SEEN their talent. I supported the drafting of most of these players.
    Farmer screwed up. Gilbert was a reach, should have been about pick 18. Manziel was a mistake, Browns were not capable of handling his skill set or his off field issues. Shelton was over-rated, the draft experts said he was not an every down player,limited speed and quickness. Earving also, was a reach, receiver would have made sense, then get your o linemen in the 2nd rd.

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    Its not my opinion Pettine is doing this for his NEXT job.. its my opinion he is doing this to find a way to KEEP this one because he realized he isnt good enough to win here. So he has to EXTEND his job here and hope for some luck, or for the players/system to come around. He is BUYING TIME. He doesnt buy time by "sucking on purpose" because he realizes he is going to suck either way, so he is choosing to suck in a way that deflects blame.

    The time has come! Our Dynasty lies ahead!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    That seems cheap, but whatever. Sorry, you just haven't convinced me that Pettine is purposefully making lesser football decisions to either a) facilitate his next career move or b) out of some personal failing of being unable to acknowledge a mistake. Make stronger arguments or simply discount me as a lesser intellect.
    Lord, it's hard to make an argument when you change my argument.

    I'm not saying pettine (in his mind) is purposefully making bad football decisions.

    I'm saying he has made bad decisions because he has clouded judgement from his personal agenda.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gambler View Post
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    Farmer screwed up. Gilbert was a reach, should have been about pick 18. Manziel was a mistake, Browns were not capable of handling his skill set or his off field issues. Shelton was over-rated, the draft experts said he was not an every down player,limited speed and quickness. Earving also, was a reach, receiver would have made sense, then get your o linemen in the 2nd rd.
    Disagree on some of this. Gilbert a reach pick that high but I think Shelton will be a good player and so will Erving. I think they need better coaching! Look how many good players on this team look like dogshit this year. It can't all be the players!

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    You know what I think? (I say as if anybody cares.)

    I think Mike Pettine is a 2nd year head coach who is learning as he goes. I think he is doing the best that he can with what he has to make the best of a bad situation right now. And I think that this team, despite the record, has been competitive in almost every game this season. Am I happy right now with how things have gone? Absolutely not. I am as upset as anyone with all the losing and the 2-6 record. But try to see the forest through the trees! We CAN'T keep hitting reset every two years because constant turnover is precisely what has created the culture we have now. Try and see the progress that Mike Pettine is making and that this front office is making. They are only going to develop better at their respective positions, much like players who play a given position, with time. I implore you to see the forest through the trees instead of only seeing red because of how angry you are.

  14. #62
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    I can get on board with that Tommy.

    I support keeping Pettine, as long as Farmer is retained as well.

    What if the "change" is hiring a president of Football Operations that the GM and coach report to.

    I can swallow that pill for 1 more season, and if it doesnt work out, sure, blow it up and have that guy hire people.

    The time has come! Our Dynasty lies ahead!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangelo930 View Post
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    You know what I think? (I say as if anybody cares.)

    I think Mike Pettine is a 2nd year head coach who is learning as he goes. I think he is doing the best that he can with what he has to make the best of a bad situation right now. And I think that this team, despite the record, has been competitive in almost every game this season. Am I happy right now with how things have gone? Absolutely not. I am as upset as anyone with all the losing and the 2-6 record. But try to see the forest through the trees! We CAN'T keep hitting reset every two years because constant turnover is precisely what has created the culture we have now. Try and see the progress that Mike Pettine is making and that this front office is making. They are only going to develop better at their respective positions, much like players who play a given position, with time. I implore you to see the forest through the trees instead of only seeing red because of how angry you are.
    There is no such thing as "learning as he goes." He had many years to work closely with and observe a lot of different types of head coaches in different situations and should not have been hired for the job if not ready to do it. We see this too often in the NFL.
    Companies whose results drop don't tolerate CEOs who are 'learning as they go." They are fired. The same rules should be applied in the NFL -- which is a business!

    Haslam has lost the fans. Something needs to be done late this season or after the season.

    Browns fans are sick and tired of the constant ineptitude.

  16. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoatShoes View Post
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    Lord, it's hard to make an argument when you change my argument.

    I'm not saying pettine (in his mind) is purposefully making bad football decisions.

    I'm saying he has made bad decisions because he has clouded judgement from his personal agenda.
    Yeah, I followed that.

    You started this by saying he was auditioning for his next job. Your original point as I've read on many occasions. You attributed his decision making to this objective; that the football decisions he's making are motivated not by what's best for the Browns but what's best for him to get his next DC job. (I believe you referenced a DC position more than once.)

    You've since altered the argument to this notion that he is "clouded by his personal agenda".

    This seems like a slight variant on the original thesis. It still seems to indicate your view of Pettine being a guy who's not all that bright. I come to this conclusion because the merits of his actions in executing his personal agenda don't seem to be a very good, let alone optimal, way to ensure his next job. Either being obstinate about admitting a mistake or acknowledging you didn't play better players to fulfill your agenda would not look real good on his resume.

    Why wouldn't doing everything possible to leave the Browns a better team than before you took it over be the optimal approach to building your reputation? Again, maybe he's just not very good and/or just not very intelligent. Seems one of those two is a better fit than a purposeful approach of making lesser football decisions or tagging a guy as stubborn about admitting mistakes.

    Again, if you just think he's a bit daft for the job I'd get that. His record certainly isn't painting him as the Einstein of coaching just yet.

  17. #65
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    Everybody learns as they go. Its the human condition. There are very few savants who are expert at anything the first time they try it. Any adolescent knows this.

    Since someone (lol) brought up CEO's, the following concept by Gladwell has been accepted by many high performance organizations as a great approach to developing talent. In summary, Gladwell (referencing work by Ericsson) talks about how statistically exceptional performers require lots of practice at their craft. (Some could use this as a strong rational to play Manziel in live game action btw. )

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outliers_(book)#Synopsis

  18. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangelo930 View Post
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    I think Mike Pettine is a 2nd year head coach who is learning as he goes. I think he is doing the best that he can with what he has
    I agree. I also don't feel he has a calculated agenda. I think McCown is just more his type of guy, so he's sticking with him. Manziel he views as an entitled rich kid millennial who needs to wait his damn turn like his father and grandfather did.

    O'Neil is the other problem. I think any last ranked D, in any year, on any team, has mostly coaching to blame. There's a chance to hit a grand slam when you work with a childhood friend, and there's a chance it can get ugly too. These players just aren't this bad.
    2017 Draft: Garrett, Peppers, Njoku, Kizer, Ogunjobi, Collins (via trade of 103), Wilson, Johnson, Brantley, Gonzalez, Dayes
    2018 EXTRA Draft picks: a 1st (Texans), two in 2nd (Eagles & Texans), a 4th (Panthers/A.Lee), a 5th (Chiefs/Cam) - 12 total
    2019 EXTRA picks: 7th rnd (w/ Coates)
    Philly trade result: C. Coleman, Peppers, Kizer, Kessler, R. Louis, S. Coleman, Drango, Kindred, Payton, 2018 1st rndr (Texans) & 2018 2nd rndr (Eagles)

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    Quote Originally Posted by PlaygroundLegend View Post
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    What if the "change" is hiring a president of Football Operations that the GM and coach report to.
    I am on board with that, albeit a little hesitant. The last thing I want to see is a repeat of the Mike Holmgren debacle. But if it's Bill Polian, or somebody who really knows their shit and is serious about helping turn the Browns into a contender, then I am all for it. Plus, I think it would be beneficial to Haslam, as it takes a lot of the heat from fans off of him. It would be kind of a sign that Haslam is keeping his nose out of football operations and really trying to do what is best for the team, which should comfort some fans who have a negative perception of him as a meddling owner.

  20. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlaygroundLegend View Post
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    I can get on board with that Tommy.

    I support keeping Pettine, as long as Farmer is retained as well.

    What if the "change" is hiring a president of Football Operations that the GM and coach report to.

    I can swallow that pill for 1 more season, and if it doesnt work out, sure, blow it up and have that guy hire people.
    The team already has a president... in fact, there are by my count/guestimate seven superior executives that Farmer/Pettine could be 'reporting' to...

    http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/team/front-office.html

    However, I get it, there is no one higher up then Farmer on the "Player Personnel" chart but just to show the team has an ass-load of executives (maybe that's the problem, office space syndrome...). IMO, Demoting Farmer/imposing some kind of babysitter upon the HC too is not the answer.

    Then again, who is worth hiring? Holmgren was ideal for that set up, and maybe it would have worked. Shit is so stinky right now MIKE HOLMGREN seems alright.

    Fucking kick me in the nuts.
    BROWNS 2017: FUCK IT, DUDE... LET'S GO BOWLING

    "I just do not get worked up over games anymore. I realized some time ago there is no point in getting worked up over them. I have no control over the outcome, it has no impact on me personally, and I have little to no actual facts to work from on properly analyzing the results." - Masters

    "Don't try to make me feel dumb for my opinion. You can kiss my ass." - MalcolmBrown

    WOOF WOOF WOOF!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    Everybody learns as they go. Its the human condition. There are very few savants who are expert at anything the first time they try it. Any adolescent knows this.

    Since someone (lol) brought up CEO's, the following concept by Gladwell has been accepted by many high performance organizations as a great approach to developing talent. In summary, Gladwell (referencing work by Ericsson) talks about how statistically exceptional performers require lots of practice at their craft. (Some could use this as a strong rational to play Manziel in live game action btw. )

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outliers_(book)#Synopsis
    Pettine had many, many years as an assistant coach and defensive coordinator to observe and learn the doi's and don'ts of head coaches. That is what is called on the job training so that when you ascend to a higher position of leadership you are ready to do it with competence. From what I observe, he learned very little.

    In the NFl, a head coach better be ready and learned, because he only gets two years to get it right in most cases.
    Last edited by AttackOffense; 11-02-2015 at 05:15 PM.

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    Manziel isn't starting. That's the point of this thread.

    Yeah, I'm salty

  23. #71
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    The first guy that needs to go is Scheiner. After he is gone, see how much things improve. If they don't, goodbye Farmer, which also likely means goodbye Pettine.

    I can't stand it when a player whines to me or his teammates or his wife or the writers or anyone else.
    A whiner is almost always wrong. A winner never whines.
    - Paul Brown

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangelo930 View Post
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    You know what I think? (I say as if anybody cares.)

    I think Mike Pettine is a 2nd year head coach who is learning as he goes. I think he is doing the best that he can with what he has to make the best of a bad situation right now. And I think that this team, despite the record, has been competitive in almost every game this season. Am I happy right now with how things have gone? Absolutely not. I am as upset as anyone with all the losing and the 2-6 record. But try to see the forest through the trees! We CAN'T keep hitting reset every two years because constant turnover is precisely what has created the culture we have now. Try and see the progress that Mike Pettine is making and that this front office is making. They are only going to develop better at their respective positions, much like players who play a given position, with time. I implore you to see the forest through the trees instead of only seeing red because of how angry you are.
    In that case, I will tell you what I think (as if anybody will care)

    I think that there is significant disconnect here. When the team signals that it is ready to trade a number of their veterans including a future HOFer, it is an indication that at the top level, they want to play for the future.

    This is not consistent with Pettine's insistence that the future is now.

    I think Haslam and Farmer are getting ready to unload Pettine.

    But I could be wrong.

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