" There are no old running QB's in the NFL " ~ Sam Rutigliano
Its Offense baby!!!!!" "ITS
My Manziel observations
- I had not noticed in the NYJ or Titans game but it deserves mentioning that Johnny has abandoned the wristband playcard, which is a clear indication that he knows the offense, is comfortable commanding the huddle, and understands the nuances of the playcalling.
- Johnny continued to use his feet to setup his arm. It was rather obvious that the Bengals were going to pressure him in the first half and Johnny adeptly bought himself time while continuing to scan the field and delivering very impressive passes on the run. When he did run, Manziel ran with a purpose and competitiveness, as evidenced by his 3rd down scamper that came up just short of a first down after booth review.
- The second half numbers, especially those passes thrown within the pocket, appear woeful but do not tell the entire story. If Gabriel and others do not drop however many passes the narrative changes from 40 yards and a poor completion percentage to 100+ yards and a more acceptable completion percentage.
- Manziel needs to learn when to dial back the velocity on his throws. Sure, an NFL receiver needs to catch anything within their general vicinity, however Johnny is not doing them any favors when he's driving the ball with an unnecessary amount of force. Last season, Johnny threw and INT as a result of not threading the football on a rope and I have a feeling that the high velocity of his throws might have been his attempt to prohibit this sort of error. As Johnny gains experience he'll need to place more touch on his passes within the context of each attempt. That being said, I don't think anyone could help but be impressed with Manziel's arm strength.
- There was not much of a pocket for Johnny to step up into in the second half, as evidenced by the sacks taken. In fact, the announcing crew seemed bewildered that no playaction was utilized to allow time for a deep route to unfold.
- Turnovers: I noticed better ball security while scrambling and being sacked. With regards to his passing, throughout his collegiate career I had always been amazed with Manziel's incredible ability to avoid throwing interceptions while directing a seemingly aggressive and risky aerial attack. Due to these observations I was a bit confused last season when Manziel seemed rather reckless with his passes and was intercepted a few times during his brief appearances. This season I'm happy to see that Johnny seems much more intentional and accurate with regards to where he is delivering the football. Last night I saw crisp, accurate passes and even those timing throws seemed well-placed, in which he attempted to fit the ball into tight coverage only to result in pass breakups. I did not particularly enjoy the past play of the game in which he was nearly intercepted but I also realize that he had nothing to lose and it was essentially a throw-away play. In totality, I was pleased with his ability to limit turnovers.
- I am not as down on Pettine as many here are, nor am I down on Flip, who I'd imagine has more input on offensive scheming. That being said, I am not sure why the Browns did not employ more of a moving pocket for Johnny through which he'd have more time to operate within. Many of the NFL's best quarterbacks, regardless of their mobility, suffer behind poor offensive lines and their respective teams look to minimize this deficiency by moving the pocket and consequently, the target of the pass rush. It would seem natural to roll Johnny out much.
- The Browns want Manziel to develop into a pocket passer that has the ability to make plays on the run when plays break down; I get it. However, there comes a point by which an acknowledgement should be made that a player can develop that part of his game with it not being force-fed to deleterious effect. Johnny didn't appear particularly horrible to me from within the pocket, however I saw that this pocket was being blown up very quickly and the offense lacked the weapons to capitalize with quick hits. Hell, the Browns are comfortable working predominantly out of the shotgun, which is not necessarily traditional, so why make pocket-play the offense's hill to die on?
- The skill position talent is brutal. I wont repeat what has been stated on Barking Hard ad nauseam, but there is so little separation, blocking, catching, etc.
I said it after the New York Jets game and I'll say it again; if you watched last night's game and don't think that Johnny Manziel is an NFL quarterback in some capacity then I don't know what to tell you. Intelligence, arm strength, accuracy, improvisational skills...they were on display. Was it a polished product? Of course not. However, at 22 years old and in consideration from last year's improvement to this year, I'll take my chances with developing Manziel going forward.
What I find amusing is that the critical narrative of Manziel continues to evolve. Last year we heard that Johnny would be out of the NFL within two years. Then, Johnny might be a backup quarterback. Now, Johnny has some work to do before becoming a serviceable starting QB. Hopefully, next we'll hear those questioning if Johnny can be a playoff quarterback and then if he can be elite and then if he can win a Superbowl.
So...would I prefer to have Manziel start going forward? Selfishly, yes. But if I were patient I'd completely agree with others including BDU who rightfully point out that trotting JM2 out every Sunday to take a beating and throw fastballs careening off of elves might not tell us much, if anything, about his long-term potential within a productive team environment that we hope to foster going forward.
I was watching the NFL Network coverage where Marshall Faulk had his say about Pettine's comments regarding Johnny making plays in the pocket and my jaw hit the fucking floor.
It was painfully obvious the the context was - Johnny is making plays outside the pocket, but he also needs to make them from inside the pocket.
That somehow got translated to - Pettine says Johnny isn't allowed to make plays outside the pocket and must remain in the pocket 100% of the time and is never allowed to leave it under any circumstance ever. He cannot run from pressure, he cannot use his legs if the opportunity is there, he's just not allowed to do it.
Only in Cleveland could that shit happen. All that went though my head was Bill Belichick standing at a press confidence and saying "Tom Brady isn't allowed to make plays from the pocket. You can't make plays unless you leave the pocket otherwise they don't count." and how it would make a great piss-take of Cleveland in a SNL sketch-esque setting.
Only in Cleveland can someone suggest that perhaps a quarterback making plays in the pocket is a good thing, and that to be immediately shunned like it isn't glaringly fucking obvious that it's 100% correct. The in-game commentary mentioned Johnny's 26 (?) yard pass to Duke Johnson. It was a great play, but Duke was open the whole way. If Johnny threw from the pocket, he puts Duke one on one with a safety in open field and it's almost a sure touchdown - the same play that was a 50-something yard gain against Arizona. Instead, Johnny ran from the pocket and then threw which put Johnson over the sideline with no room for YAC.
It was a great play by Johnny none the less, but these are the little things he needs to improve on. Pettine was totally right to point it out, and it's something Flip/O'Connell will show Johnny in the film room this week. It's not a big deal, it's one of those "Oh yeah" moments that young players have.
That's why Pettine is done. The media and fans have gotten so rabid that suggesting a quarterback make some more plays from inside the pocket has become a bad thing, in spite of no quarterback in NFL history being considered "good" if he doesn't consistently make plays from the pocket. It's literally the one complaint anyone could have against Johnny from that game - He still needs to see things a little sooner and make those plays from the pocket. It isn't even a little incorrect to point that out.
The other thing I noticed was how the two teams are discussed by those NFL network guys. Not once was Marvin Lewis or the coaches mentioned, they instead discussed the litany of elite talent the Bengals have across the board. They talked about their pass rushers opening up in the second half. They talked about Sanu, Green, Jones and Eifert just being uncoverable. They talked about the rushing games success, they talked about the secondary giving Johnny nothing.
Then it came to us - Pettine, Pettine, Johnny, Pettine, Johnny. They didn't talk about how woeful the players were, they just talked about the coach. It's crazy. This was literally the best example we've had all year of the players being terrible. Tramon Williams played literally the worst game I've ever seen. We constantly got beat in coverage, we constantly let them run against a stacked box, we dropped a minimum of six or seven passes with almost all of them being for first downs, we could not get open more often than not, we missed tackles - all of that was neglected in place of blaming the coach for everything, like our issues were schematic. My favorite was a 3rd and 1 in which we blitzed eight across the line and Hill picked up like 17 because he ran between tackle and guard untouched - and people are pissed at the coach!?
It's to the stage where Pettine is just too far gone. People have decided he's the problem. It's the same with all our coaches, really. It's why we've got like two players on this entire team from five years ago - we blame the coach, and then the new coach spends more time trying to get rid of the shit players than he does just simply coaching the fucking team. I am honestly beginning to think this cycle is never going to end.
Only took an hour.Pett said he didn't mean on NFL Network that he wants Manziel to play from pocket all the time, just when the early read is there
And its becoming more and more hikarious at how much you guys are refusing to see reality.
Pettine is all in against johnny.
1: No one except the hardcore fanboys are saying Manziel needs to improve some things. Of course he does. Every QB does, even the fucking loser ass cheater people are jerking off in this thread. Fine, let him improve by getting behind him, naming him the starter for the rest of the season and let him get the reps in. What should have been one already. Instead we are going to head into year three WITHOUT a clear picture of if he can be the guy and if so WHAT needs to be done around him, other than the obvious to everyone except Farmer and Pettine.
2: We are heading into year three and still have no idea what we fully have in JFF. I see a guy with enough promise to roll with it and see what is there. Instead Farmer AS WELL AS Pettine have created a situation where Jimmy needs to choose between Farmer and Pettine, Pettine and JFF or clean house on all three. Farmer is easy, the guy is absolute trash. He makes Savage and Kokinas look half competent all while making Walrus seem humble and kind compared to his massive ego. In my opinion and from what I have seen Pettine is a dumbass. That may or may not have to do with Farmer. From what I have seen Manziel MAY be able to FINALLY be the guy, or at least the guy to place hold and fix the losing around here. Pettine clearly doesn't like him. So which do you choose?
Do we just clean house on all three? Do we keep Pettine, who has shown no inclination that he gets it, do we keep a promising but troubled QB and try to maximize that? That's what it all boils down to. If Manziel is going to have a year three then Pettine has to go. He has no idea how to maximize JF's talents nor how to build a system for him. Pettine wants a pocket passer that fits his scheme. Many HC's do. So either get a GM and a HC who can work with JF and build a system around that to roll with it or get rid of Farmer and JF and get a GM and QB on the same page with Pettine and keep running a so far shitty ass system. That's what it is boiling down to.
Battling the hardcore fanboys has been my personally appointed role here at BH. So, I come off a bit aggressive on the topic. I'd refer you to reviews of Manziel's performance as being "without flaw" and other related stupid shit.
As for the broader issue you raise about playing Manziel, I agree as I've stated repeatedly over the past 14 hours.
The one nagging question I have is: Is there some mitigating factor that we are completely unaware of regarding Manziel that has been the determinant in holding the Browns' hands thus far? I honestly can't think of a good one and its really not my bag as it starts to become a conspiracy theory of its own.
That said, its worth considering (at least for me) before declaring Pettine, Flip, Farmer, O'Connell, and the entire organization as being stupid and shockingly aligned in their stupidity. I guess its possible. Maybe BS and others have been right all along. Maybe Pettine is purposefully holding Manziel back for some dumbass reason (Hates the kid, reminds him of a kid who kicked his ass when he was 12, whatever) or.... he's just not very bright.
Last edited by AttackOffense; 11-06-2015 at 01:55 PM.
People forget that McCown is Flip's guy. Flip is also in his first year, perhaps he feels a lot more comfortable with a highly intelligent veteran leading the offense. I know Flip likes Johnny, but Johnny is prone to going off script and it's also hard for Flip to know exactly how to use Manziel right now given they've only just started their working relationship.
People are so quick to say that Pettine hates Johnny, but nobody ever mentions Flip where there are a host of reasons why he might be less comfortable with having Johnny in, at least right now.
Pettine says he expects mixed opinions when deciding who to start, and people seem to think that means "Pettine vs everyone" when Flip would have the most say when it comes to who starts at the most important position on his offense. I can't help but wonder if he's just more comfortable with McCown right now, especially when McCown is playing much better than anyone gives him credit for.
Jared Goff, Paxton Lynch and Connor Cook are in consideration for being the first player drafted. Before you call me an idiot. This is my opinion based on what I've seen, heard and read.
I know JM supporters will disagree. I don't know how JM will perform the rest of the season. I hope the Browns don' t have to draft a QB, but there are more options at QB this year compared to last year.
I really like Laquan Treadwell at receiver.
I know the defense needs players, but that's always been the case with the Browns. Last three drafts: 6th B. Mingo, 8th Gilbert, 12th Shelton. I have no confidence in GM to draft the right players.
Paxton Lynch is a wild card. He looked good against a good Mississippi defense but I just haven't see n enough of him against quality competition. He seems to make most of the throws and has amazingly excellent mobility for a QB his size. But I'm still not sure about his arm strength despite his size. Requires more study.
However, I am not gonna throw stats and stuff at you because it's a difficult endeavor to translate college talent into NFL talent. Not impossible, but difficult. I say smarts and accuracy. Does the QB know when and where to throw the ball and have the accuracy to throw it there? That's the only question I ask of a QB. Sure, it's great if he can "make all the throws" like so many college QBs, or if he is some super duper "athlete" that doesn't equal "football player." However, as long as he's not some limp wristed college sensation, does he know when and where to throw the ball and have the accuracy to throw it there? Can he read a defense without the defenders holding up cue cards?
So, it's just my opinion that the 2016 QB Draft class is average, at best. Some of those guys may get drafted in the top 5 or top 10, but it will be because desperate teams will choose the best of what's available, not because there's a legitimate Franchise QB available.
As it stands as of November 16th, 2015, the Browns are in line for the 1st overall pick in a QB average draft, as is always the luck of the Browns. High pick but no QB worthy of it.
(Aside: Just like the QB position, the Browns fire and hire coaches with the timing to hire some nobody. They never, ever fire someone when a Bruce Arians, Jeff Fischer, Jack Del Rio, Andy Reid or Jim Harbaugh is available for hire. Keep Pett as a placeholder until a proven coach IS available, like I said we should have done with Crennel.)
So, with the #1 overall pick in the 2016 NFL Draft, the Browns select DE Joey Bosa or RB Ezekiel Elliott, with my preference going to Elliott because he will score more TDs than Bosa. It's a bit of a tough call, because killing the other QB always leads to wins, but Bosa "seems" lackadaisical. He puts up great numbers, but something about his college game screams, "Surf's up, dude. Let's hit the beach."