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Thread: Continuity - The one thing the Browns HAVEN'T tried!!!

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    Default Continuity - The one thing the Browns HAVEN'T tried!!!

    I hear a lot of national media talking heads, and read a lot of national media 'experts', and yes I even see it here on BH...a call to fire Farmer, Pettine, or both.

    I am one who believes letting the GM/HC gain experience and grow into the position is the way to build long term success. I believe Farmer has hit on enough players...and yes some are still growing (Manziel) or are yet to be determined (Shelton/Erving/etc)...but if you get rid of him now and those three end up doing well for the organization.....look at the 2 drafts this guy will have put together.

    Pettine is having growing pains as well. Last year he was saddled with an OC not of his choice...and the guy burned him. The so called offensive guru Shannahan burned ALL bridges on his way out (oh...and his track record is coming back to haunt him...over the last 3 games his vaunted offense has not broken 21 against the likes of TB/Ten/NO...sound familiar...it all falls apart around week 6???). Pettine got burned so bad he devoted time to the offense this year instead of staying with the D...and it shows. I for one wouldn't mind bringing in a new DC...or at least a more veteran guy to assist.

    But with that in mind...look at some other teams out there with disappointing seasons so far:
    Baltimore: do you see them firing Newsome or Harbaugh? not likely
    Tennessee: do you think they will scratch it all and start over? I don't think so
    Jacksonville: not a peep out of there about starting over
    Dallas: nothing, not even a hint of blowing it up
    SF: again...too soon for the axe to fall

    There may be a few teams to start over...but they are perennial LOSERS...they do it every time.

    Detroit: yup, I could see that shoe falling
    Miami: already did it
    Chicago: not sure, but wouldn't surprise me

    The Browns have to start acting like the teams they are chasing. Pittsburgh, Baltimore and Cinci all keep their FO together long term and change only when it is NECESSARY...not every 2 years as a knee jerk reaction to some bumps in the road.

    Give this FO/HC another year...maybe two. Let this thing get its legs...see what we really have.

    After all...not one HC/GM has had more than 3 years since 1999...and we have had some legit good ones (after they left).
    Football is all about synergy. Replace a poor player with a great player and watch the surrounding players suddenly seem vastly improved. When you aren't covering for someone else, you can do YOUR JOB better.



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    Quote Originally Posted by DawgFan View Post
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    I hear a lot of national media talking heads, and read a lot of national media 'experts', and yes I even see it here on BH...a call to fire Farmer, Pettine, or both.

    I am one who believes letting the GM/HC gain experience and grow into the position is the way to build long term success. I believe Farmer has hit on enough players...and yes some are still growing (Manziel) or are yet to be determined (Shelton/Erving/etc)...but if you get rid of him now and those three end up doing well for the organization.....look at the 2 drafts this guy will have put together.

    Pettine is having growing pains as well. Last year he was saddled with an OC not of his choice...and the guy burned him. The so called offensive guru Shannahan burned ALL bridges on his way out (oh...and his track record is coming back to haunt him...over the last 3 games his vaunted offense has not broken 21 against the likes of TB/Ten/NO...sound familiar...it all falls apart around week 6???). Pettine got burned so bad he devoted time to the offense this year instead of staying with the D...and it shows. I for one wouldn't mind bringing in a new DC...or at least a more veteran guy to assist.

    But with that in mind...look at some other teams out there with disappointing seasons so far:
    Baltimore: do you see them firing Newsome or Harbaugh? not likely
    Tennessee: do you think they will scratch it all and start over? I don't think so
    Jacksonville: not a peep out of there about starting over
    Dallas: nothing, not even a hint of blowing it up
    SF: again...too soon for the axe to fall

    There may be a few teams to start over...but they are perennial LOSERS...they do it every time.

    Detroit: yup, I could see that shoe falling
    Miami: already did it
    Chicago: not sure, but wouldn't surprise me

    The Browns have to start acting like the teams they are chasing. Pittsburgh, Baltimore and Cinci all keep their FO together long term and change only when it is NECESSARY...not every 2 years as a knee jerk reaction to some bumps in the road.

    Give this FO/HC another year...maybe two. Let this thing get its legs...see what we really have.

    After all...not one HC/GM has had more than 3 years since 1999...and we have had some legit good ones (after they left).
    You seek continuity when the GM and head coach display some semblance of competence. We haven't seen any of that from any GM or head coach under Haslam!

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    Continuity is great but I feel like there's been so much fucking shit around this team, and why is that we have to ask? We can't seem to keep things in-house, textgate was a goddamn joke. The record of this coach and GM is suspect at best at this point. I understand continuity, the last time we tried it was with Crennell/Savage, and look how well that turned out. Well we had our best season in a while (almost a decade now, fuck...) before the wheels came off.
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    "My Mother's day card always says "Mum, I love you less than I love Joe Thomas. You can't even block, for fuck sakes." - brownsdownunder

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    We haven't seen any competence with the HC and GM since Haslam has been here? 2 HC's and 2 GM's in 2.5 years and we never will see any competence if that continues too be the Browns track record. The team has to start somewhere and I hate to break it to everyone that if they fire these guys after 2 years no one, I repeat no one, will want to work for the Browns organization knowing that if they don't produce in 2 years they're done.

    Complain as much as you want, but until the Browns organization gives GM's and HC's a legitimate chance to build a franchise we're stuck with rookie HC's and GM's who are going to make mistakes or people like Holmgren who basically gave us the double bird for a quick payday. Stick it out with Farmer and Pettine for a couple more years and let the failure be on their shoulders and not the owner not giving them a fair shot. If then Cleveland moves on, at least other people might be willing to come to Cleveland knowing they can get a fair chance

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    there is NOOO WAY shit dont blow up.

    I can somewhat see Farmer staying and getting another draft and FA to do it HIS WAY on his own...and draft his own coach.

    Oneil....the defense.....and Pettine not playing young guys(duke johnson after having 2 catches for 70 yards in first half) not putting Manziel in for Mccown when visibily hurt and cost game. Loss to Oakland after team was SKKYYYYY high from Manziel. That game is most energy team has had BYYYYY FARRRRRR. The energy and excitement Manziel brings when he does HIS THING is not matched on this team....and never has.

    Campbell looks better then whitner
    Poyer has played lights out.
    whole front 7 except armonty bryant and dansby have looked like they dont know what to do....and cant make a play. The scheme is not working for our guys. Coaches do not make halftime adjustments, We are worst 2nd half team in NFL. Only manziel and him not listening to pettine got us touchdown late to seal it.

    Farmer being suspended. All the drama...


    PETTINE HAS TO BE FIRED.....BECAUSE THE TEAM DOESNT BELIEVE AT ALL THAT HE IS GOING TO LEAD THEM TO PLAYOFF WINS. Mike Pettine will never win playoff game as HC anywhere.




    urban meyer as coach and GM( or keep farmer and urban says goes or farmer does)

    gruden or cowher but that aint happening.

    Kevin Sumlin or promote Flip.

    if we cant get urban meyer im all for Flip being promoted. Id have oconnell be the OC if Mccown still on team. Mccown could be be QB coach.

    We need Defensive Coordinator that can blitz, and have our guys playing like they can. We need to have a pass rush, we need a spread hurry up wide open offense and run inside draws....powers....reverses, let manziel run.

    id let farmer draft and run the roster completely for a year, but bowe and desmond bryant have to be cut off the rip. Whitner, Kruger, Mack, and Haden need traded.

    HADEN IS BEING INVESTIGATED BY FBI AND HE PLAYING WORSE THEN GILBERT. HE MAY BE GOING TO PRISON.




    WHATEVER COACH COMES HERE.....THE PLAYERS HAVE TO LIKE..... AND WANT TO PLAY FOR. HE HAS TO KNOW HOW TO ADAPT HIS SCHEMES TO OUR ROSTER.... BC WE HAVE NOT HAD SCHEMES THAT WORKED FOR THIS TEAM LAST 2 YEARS EXCEPT OFFENSE.

    WE NEED TO BE DISCIPLINED. THATS WHY IM ALL FOR MACK AND THOMAS TO GO.... FALSE STARTS ON 3RD DOWN..... NO RUNNING HOLES.... WASTE OF $$$

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    not getting odell beckham, aaron donald, zack martin, cj mosley, bradley roby, or kelvin benjamin in 2014 draft.....along with manziel is a straight shame. We should not have traded up for Gilbert. I would have traded back if anything....with manziel. carr. bridgewater all left...

    Jeremy Hill and Carlos Hyde.... UGH

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    The other side of the continuity coin is that the continuity of losing will yield more losing.

    How do you go from 7-9 to what's shaping up to be 4-12? Brian Hoyer? I don't know, but if Chud was fired because his team didn't show improvement in one season, what does regression from year to year do for you? Most people were happy to see the team "improve" to 7 wins in 2014, but why the regression in 2015? Don't tell me injuries, because that's part of the game that every team has to deal with. Losing your Franchise QB to injury is one thing, but most of the rest can be overcome.

    I just look at the team philosophy. Like, not setting the edge. Or having 2 offseasons to build a team to execute the coach's philosophy of "run the ball, and stop the run" but end up nearly dead last in both. How about 3 first round picks in the last 2 years contributing absolutely nothing to the team? When things get THIS ugly, it's not as easy as just sticking with it for the sake of continuity. You want the continuity of more first rounders riding the pine and more dead last rankings? Really? Is that what you want?

    There's a whole bunch of shoulda-coulda-wouldas here. Like shoulda-coulda-woulda had Jack Del Rio and Derek Carr, for one example, but instead have shit and shit. I know hindsight is 20-20 (50-50 if you ask Cam Newton), but if it's all a crapshoot and you roll snake-eyes, then it's time to roll again. If I'm Haslam, I'm asking some really tough questions, and demanding some real tough answers.

    -Al

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    Quote Originally Posted by DawgsDefense View Post
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    I can somewhat see Farmer staying and getting another draft and FA to do it HIS WAY on his own...and draft his own coach.

    urban meyer as coach and GM( or keep farmer and urban says goes or farmer does)

    gruden or cowher but that aint happening.

    Kevin Sumlin or promote Flip.
    I can see Farmer getting that chance. Not sure I'd give it to him, but Haslam might be game for that.

    I'm not sold on Sumlin, but yea, the rest of those coaches are worth going after. Hell, I'd even go after Mooch before some no-name like Pett. Just don't hire Matt "Fire" Millen to be the GM!

    -Al

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    I'll back you up DawgFan. I completely agree with you. This team sorely needs to keep this front office in place. And the argument about this front office not showing any signs of competence is just flat out wrong. I know we're conditioned to only look at the record to judge everything, but let's try to look beyond that a bit. This team has been competitive in all but one game this season. We are seeing improvement, even if the record doesn't reflect it yet. But it will, in time. It might not be this year, but it will happen if we stay the course. I know losing is frustrating. We're fans, we're supposed to overreact and be passionate and talk about controversies and conspiracies and all that shit. But Jimmy Haslam has to keep his head on straight, not make an emotional, knee jerk reaction to try and quell the fire of anger permeating from the fanbase right now. I've seen the reset button hit too early enough times now to know it's the wrong thing to do. How many times do we have to run head first into a brick wall before we decide to try another path? Firing the front office is the wrong thing to do. I truly believe that.
    Last edited by Tangelo930; 11-02-2015 at 06:45 PM.

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    Tang, I've been careful not to outright call for the firing of Pett and Farmer, but there are some questions that need to be answered. I posted some questions in my post right above yours, and there's more. They need to be answered. It was nice to see the Browns take such a commanding lead in the first half, but questions about the 2nd half collapse must be answered. The Cards dished out a sick number of turnovers, but the Browns couldn't capitalize enough to win the game. Why not? (You don't have to answer that question, but Pett does.) Why can the opponent make adjustments, but you can't make counter adjustments?

    I understand the importance of continuity, and I agree with most of what you and DF are saying, but the Browns can't move on without answering the tough questions. Haslam should definitely not succumb to fan and media pressure. It's his team. He needs to establish the operational excellence and assure that every employee of the Browns abides by it.

    You need good talent evaluators. You need good coaching. Those two can overcome so much adversity. Start there and ask the tough questions. When you have more first rounders riding the pine than contributing, something is very wrong. When you build your team to run the ball and stop the run, but are near dead last in both rankings, something is very wrong. When you can't set the edge, despite Orchard's quote two weeks ago that the first priority is to set the edge, something is very, very wrong.

    -Al

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    Excellent use of Caps Lock DD, you learned from the best
    BROWNS 2017: TIME TO SHIT THE BED IN ANOTHER DRAFT, YAY!
    "I just do not get worked up over games anymore. I realized some time ago there is no point in getting worked up over them. I have no control over the outcome, it has no impact on me personally, and I have little to no actual facts to work from on properly analyzing the results." - Masters

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    I hear Urban Meyer is high on Haslams wish list. And if Manning retires after this year, he could step into the GM role. I'd be ok with both those guys. The thing both have in common is are you ready? Winning
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stray Dawg View Post
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    I hear Urban Meyer is high on Haslams wish list. And if Manning retires after this year, he could step into the GM role. I'd be ok with both those guys. The thing both have in common is are you ready? Winning
    Manning, a soon to be former HOF QB, knows what a QB needs on offense to win. So ... GM or Head Coach?

    -Al

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    I can't see Meyer AND Manning together. Too many heads butting there...

    If Manning is GM, he will find his head coach who will play along. I don't see Meyer as that kind of guy...

    -Al

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    Whatever happened to Tressel? Weren't we all high on him coming to the Browns? I know Ohio University is more academic than athletic, but does Tressel go to the MAC and turn OU into a powerhouse? He already did the Youngstown State thing, so where does Tressel coach in 2016 after his suspension is lifted?

    -Al

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geech View Post
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    Manning, a soon to be former HOF QB, knows what a QB needs on offense to win. So ... GM or Head Coach?
    You brought up a lot of great points, Geech. I agree there are plenty of questions that need to be answered. This team's biggest problem is the inability to close out games. They definitely lack that killer instinct. They have only successfully closed out one game this season. Tennessee. The Baltimore win was an overtime nailbiter. One thing to note is that Johnny delivered the dagger to close out the Titans, so perhaps he has what it takes to light the fire under this team once he takes the reigns? Who knows, but I hope we get to find out.

    As for your inquiry about Manning? If the Browns DO decide to hit reset on the front office (which I still strongly oppose), I would love to see Manning as GM, although I have a feeling that is a pipe dream.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geech View Post
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    Whatever happened to Tressel? Weren't we all high on him coming to the Browns? I know Ohio University is more academic than athletic, but does Tressel go to the MAC and turn OU into a powerhouse? He already did the Youngstown State thing, so where does Tressel coach in 2016 after his suspension is lifted?
    I went to Bowling Green and I would love to see Tressel coach there. The Falcons have been very good in the MAC the last few years. It'd be great for this BG alum to see Tressel coach there.

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    Uncle Jimmy better have ringers to replace the guys he fires.

    If I HAD to fire one coach, it'd be O'Neil. Nice guy, but you can't tell me he has had his side of the ball ignored in free agency and the draft.

    If he's a decent coach, he should at least be able to coach'em-up to be average. 32nd is partly/mostly a coaching prob.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangelo930 View Post
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    You brought up a lot of great points, Geech. I agree there are plenty of questions that need to be answered. This team's biggest problem is the inability to close out games. They definitely lack that killer instinct. They have only successfully closed out one game this season. Tennessee. The Baltimore win was an overtime nailbiter. One thing to note is that Johnny delivered the dagger to close out the Titans, so perhaps he has what it takes to light the fire under this team once he takes the reigns? Who knows, but I hope we get to find out.

    As for your inquiry about Manning? If the Browns DO decide to hit reset on the front office (which I still strongly oppose), I would love to see Manning as GM, although I have a feeling that is a pipe dream.



    I went to Bowling Green and I would love to see Tressel coach there. The Falcons have been very good in the MAC the last few years. It'd be great for this BG alum to see Tressel coach there.
    My sister is a BG Alumn, so I would have no problem with that. I just threw that out there thinking it would be nice to have two Ohio powerhouse teams, as some other states have. ASU and UofA in Arizona are not exactly powerhouses, but they are two very good teams that cause alot of trouble in the Pac12.

    The inability to close out games is just another question in the long line of questions that need to be answered. How were the Browns not 4-0, and even 5-0 after the Ravens game? That's a shit schedule to start off the year. It doesn't get any easier.

    -Al

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geech View Post
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    Whatever happened to Tressel? Weren't we all high on him coming to the Browns? I know Ohio University is more academic than athletic, but does Tressel go to the MAC and turn OU into a powerhouse? He already did the Youngstown State thing, so where does Tressel coach in 2016 after his suspension is lifted?

    -Al
    I know Ohio State homers around here were high on him...
    BROWNS 2017: TIME TO SHIT THE BED IN ANOTHER DRAFT, YAY!
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    "My Mother's day card always says "Mum, I love you less than I love Joe Thomas. You can't even block, for fuck sakes." - brownsdownunder

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    Urban is a pipe dream.

    I think he is only one that can win title here.

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    Urban Meyer? sheesh

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    Quote Originally Posted by woo540 View Post
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    We haven't seen any competence with the HC and GM since Haslam has been here? 2 HC's and 2 GM's in 2.5 years and we never will see any competence if that continues too be the Browns track record. The team has to start somewhere and I hate to break it to everyone that if they fire these guys after 2 years no one, I repeat no one, will want to work for the Browns organization knowing that if they don't produce in 2 years they're done.

    Complain as much as you want, but until the Browns organization gives GM's and HC's a legitimate chance to build a franchise we're stuck with rookie HC's and GM's who are going to make mistakes or people like Holmgren who basically gave us the double bird for a quick payday. Stick it out with Farmer and Pettine for a couple more years and let the failure be on their shoulders and not the owner not giving them a fair shot. If then Cleveland moves on, at least other people might be willing to come to Cleveland knowing they can get a fair chance
    Farmer and Pettine both have outmoded views of NFL football. Dump 'em.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangelo930 View Post
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    You brought up a lot of great points, Geech. I agree there are plenty of questions that need to be answered. This team's biggest problem is the inability to close out games. They definitely lack that killer instinct. They have only successfully closed out one game this season. Tennessee. The Baltimore win was an overtime nailbiter. One thing to note is that Johnny delivered the dagger to close out the Titans, so perhaps he has what it takes to light the fire under this team once he takes the reigns? Who knows, but I hope we get to find out.

    As for your inquiry about Manning? If the Browns DO decide to hit reset on the front office (which I still strongly oppose), I would love to see Manning as GM, although I have a feeling that is a pipe dream.



    I went to Bowling Green and I would love to see Tressel coach there. The Falcons have been very good in the MAC the last few years. It'd be great for this BG alum to see Tressel coach there.
    No matter who the had coach the past 15 years, this team has always been unable to stop teams at the end of the first half and late in the 4th quarter. It's called lack of talent and an inability of the offenses to sustain drives, and as a result the defense is on the field too long and wears down. Just look at the Browns second half on Sunday. Three and out. Three and out. Three and out in the second half.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geech View Post
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    Tang, I've been careful not to outright call for the firing of Pett and Farmer, but there are some questions that need to be answered. I posted some questions in my post right above yours, and there's more. They need to be answered. It was nice to see the Browns take such a commanding lead in the first half, but questions about the 2nd half collapse must be answered. The Cards dished out a sick number of turnovers, but the Browns couldn't capitalize enough to win the game. Why not? (You don't have to answer that question, but Pett does.) Why can the opponent make adjustments, but you can't make counter adjustments?

    I understand the importance of continuity, and I agree with most of what you and DF are saying, but the Browns can't move on without answering the tough questions. Haslam should definitely not succumb to fan and media pressure. It's his team. He needs to establish the operational excellence and assure that every employee of the Browns abides by it.

    You need good talent evaluators. You need good coaching. Those two can overcome so much adversity. Start there and ask the tough questions. When you have more first rounders riding the pine than contributing, something is very wrong. When you build your team to run the ball and stop the run, but are near dead last in both rankings, something is very wrong. When you can't set the edge, despite Orchard's quote two weeks ago that the first priority is to set the edge, something is very, very wrong.

    -Al
    My point as well. Teams have been killing the Browns on the edge for two years now and they can't seem to fix it. Part of it is the scheme, part of it is the lack of LBs who have a nose for the ball and can tackle. Browns have just about the worst set of LBs in the NFL. Just watch other teams' LBs play and then watch the Bornws LBs. It's like day and night!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tangelo930 View Post
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    I'll back you up DawgFan. I completely agree with you. This team sorely needs to keep this front office in place. And the argument about this front office not showing any signs of competence is just flat out wrong. I know we're conditioned to only look at the record to judge everything, but let's try to look beyond that a bit. This team has been competitive in all but one game this season. We are seeing improvement, even if the record doesn't reflect it yet. But it will, in time. It might not be this year, but it will happen if we stay the course. I know losing is frustrating. We're fans, we're supposed to overreact and be passionate and talk about controversies and conspiracies and all that shit. But Jimmy Haslam has to keep his head on straight, not make an emotional, knee jerk reaction to try and quell the fire of anger permeating from the fanbase right now. I've seen the reset button hit too early enough times now to know it's the wrong thing to do. How many times do we have to run head first into a brick wall before we decide to try another path? Firing the front office is the wrong thing to do. I truly believe that.
    Firing the front office is the exact right thing to do. Farmer and Pettine are out of touch bozos.

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