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Thread: Continuity - The one thing the Browns HAVEN'T tried!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enigmatic Evil View Post
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    I would never take it personally but I mean you're right that you don't 'develop' a coach but I think what I mean to assert is that coaches do show growth with experience. A coach should show development, just like a player. Especially first time head coaches who are learning the ropes. I understand your argument...

    I guess, if we were to apply the "Brady Quinn rule" (12 games) to coaches, it would be misleading. Pettine through his first 12 games was radically different than what we've seen this year. Does that suggest he's not the one?
    EE, you can evaluate a coach by the product they put on the field. Your work is on display every Friday, Saturday, or Sunday or whenever you play. It does not matter if it's high school, college, or pros, you're evaluated on wins and losses. Pettine needs to be fired as soon as the season is over along with Farmer of course. This team has regressed, the players know that Pettine is not a good HC. Some fans are in denial, but you are what your record says you are.

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    We've got 1 brake and 1 punch, but mostly CNC Mills/Lathes and Manuals (I set-up and ran the CNC Mills, and a little CNC Lathes on rare occasion). I started as a Gear Cutter in 1990. I got out of that in the late 90s. In this shop, we were mostly in the 10+ day late range. Some oddballs were several months late. Our short runs are like 50ea per month. There's one punch/deburr job (no brake) that we do over 1,000ea per month, another for 850ea. Nothing like 10,000ea. Everything's Just-In-Time, low inventory, high turnover these days. Finance departments love the monthly fiscal cycle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gambler View Post
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    EE, you can evaluate a coach by the product they put on the field. Your work is on display every Friday, Saturday, or Sunday or whenever you play. It does not matter if it's high school, college, or pros, you're evaluated on wins and losses. Pettine needs to be fired as soon as the season is over along with Farmer of course. This team has regressed, the players know that Pettine is not a good HC. Some fans are in denial, but you are what your record says you are.
    We have a lot of experience watching this scenario play out. Just look at similar junctures in seasons' past with some of the sad head coaches we had and we all could see the handwriting on the wall. Pettine just doesn't have what it takes to be a successful head coach. Period.

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    Not sure if anyone has read this SI article but it has some great quotes from Joe Thomas on continuity and consistency and how he thinks we should let this play out instead of blowing everything up again. Good to get the perspective of a guy who's been through multiple coaching changes [FIVE] and been in CLE his whole career. I'll try to quote the major points..

    “The lack of continuity,” Thomas says frankly, “is the No. 1 reason we have been held back as an organization since the team returned in 1999.”
    “It’s gotten hard for me the older I’ve gotten, because I’ve realized that it does take time to build something special,” Thomas, 31, continues. “I don’t think you are going to win the Super Bowl the first year you have a new head coach. I look at my career, getting older and older, and saying, my window of opportunity is smaller and smaller. And when you have a new coach, it becomes even smaller, because now you are looking at, probably, legitimately, a three or four-year process to find out if he’s got what it takes, if they’ve got the pieces in place to win consistently. This is my ninth year, next year will be 10, so you do the math.”
    “I still think it takes time for your vision to come to fruition, and no matter what you see after one or two years, there was a reason you hired the person in the first place, so give him an opportunity to lay out his vision,” Thomas says. “Sometimes it takes a step backward to go two forward.
    “Cleveland is such a great football town, with so many passionate fans who expect a lot, which is great,” Thomas says. “But I think sometimes those high expectations and that scrutiny works against them. They are so emotional about each loss, the natural human instinct is, Ah, we’ve got to start over; this isn’t the team; this isn’t the coaching staff; these aren’t the players we need. You have to give them a chance, to lay the foundation and build upon that and turn the team into a winning franchise.”
    http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2015/12/10/c...m-mike-pettine

    Now I am not saying we should keep the current regime but if we keep everyone I won't be mad

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Browns next QB View Post
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    Not sure if anyone has read this SI article but it has some great quotes from Joe Thomas on continuity and consistency and how he thinks we should let this play out instead of blowing everything up again. Good to get the perspective of a guy who's been through multiple coaching changes [FIVE] and been in CLE his whole career. I'll try to quote the major points..

    “The lack of continuity,” Thomas says frankly, “is the No. 1 reason we have been held back as an organization since the team returned in 1999.”
    “It’s gotten hard for me the older I’ve gotten, because I’ve realized that it does take time to build something special,” Thomas, 31, continues. “I don’t think you are going to win the Super Bowl the first year you have a new head coach. I look at my career, getting older and older, and saying, my window of opportunity is smaller and smaller. And when you have a new coach, it becomes even smaller, because now you are looking at, probably, legitimately, a three or four-year process to find out if he’s got what it takes, if they’ve got the pieces in place to win consistently. This is my ninth year, next year will be 10, so you do the math.”
    “I still think it takes time for your vision to come to fruition, and no matter what you see after one or two years, there was a reason you hired the person in the first place, so give him an opportunity to lay out his vision,” Thomas says. “Sometimes it takes a step backward to go two forward.
    “Cleveland is such a great football town, with so many passionate fans who expect a lot, which is great,” Thomas says. “But I think sometimes those high expectations and that scrutiny works against them. They are so emotional about each loss, the natural human instinct is, Ah, we’ve got to start over; this isn’t the team; this isn’t the coaching staff; these aren’t the players we need. You have to give them a chance, to lay the foundation and build upon that and turn the team into a winning franchise.”
    http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2015/12/10/c...m-mike-pettine

    Now I am not saying we should keep the current regime but if we keep everyone I won't be mad
    Great post. I agree with you. My anger has kind of subsided as the season has waned and I am becoming more accepting of potentially keeping this front office and letting them keep building. I think the popular opinion right now is that the Browns are going to blow it up, but it would be kind of refreshing to see Jimmy Haslam not cave to fan pressure and keep this front office IF he thinks that is what the right decision is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Browns next QB View Post
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    Not sure if anyone has read this SI article but it has some great quotes from Joe Thomas on continuity and consistency and how he thinks we should let this play out instead of blowing everything up again. Good to get the perspective of a guy who's been through multiple coaching changes [FIVE] and been in CLE his whole career. I'll try to quote the major points..









    http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2015/12/10/c...m-mike-pettine

    Now I am not saying we should keep the current regime but if we keep everyone I won't be mad
    Totally disagree with Joe Thomas. The reason the Browns have been bad is because the people in high places have all been really bad. Leaving in place Ray Farmer, a guy who has totally fucked up two drafts and two free agency period, like Thomas wants is insane. Leaving in place a head coach who takes a good defense and makes it 10 times worse in his second season is totally insane.
    Last edited by AttackOffense; 12-16-2015 at 02:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackOffense View Post
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    Totally disagree with Joe Thomas.
    Of course you do.

    However, he's in a much better position to know what he's talking about versus a fellow blowhard on a fan forum (even if said blowhard thinks he's actually smart).

    He's onto something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    Of course you do.

    However, he's in a much better position to know what he's talking about versus a fellow blowhard on a fan forum (even if said blowhard thinks he's actually smart).

    He's onto something.
    Some players do a lot of talking and aren't on to anything. Over the past two years we've seen a lot of Browns players say this and that and the facts on the field prove them totally wrong as the opposite happens in real life, and that likely includes stuff Thomas has said as well.

    I do know one thing: I'd love to see Joe Thomas do less talking to the media and apply his energies instead to learning how to run block better so his team could run behind him a lot more, like most teams do over their LT position. Browns run behind Thomas half as much as teams like the Bengals and Cowboys do behind their star LTs.
    Last edited by AttackOffense; 12-16-2015 at 04:14 PM.

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    AO, you have been banned by management from ever talking about Joe Thomas again.

    By the way, Schwartz joins Thomas on PFF's All Pro list through week 14:

    Tackles

    Tyron Smith (DAL), Joe Thomas (CLE), Terron Armstead (NO), Andrew Whitworth (CIN), Mitchell Schwartz (CLE), and Ryan Schraeder (ATL)

    We know what you’re thinking: How have Schwartz and Schraeder made this list when guys like Joe Staley, Cordy Glenn and Trent Williams (to name but a few) have not? Well, we can’t ignore the right tackles out there, and those two are the best of the bunch. On the left side, we might not be quite in the age of Jones, Pace, and Ogden, but there’s a plethora of talented tackles, making those who make this team true standouts.
    Thomas remains an elite player and will likely go down as the second best ever to play the position in history behind Munoz. Keep feeling free to talk shit about him.
    Last edited by Greythan; 12-16-2015 at 04:21 PM.

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    Interesting how the fact that the Browns non-OL blocking being dead last is not discussed more. Pakorny (sic) mentioned in his breakdown of the game that Barnidge and Crowell had their best blocking days of the year...and look what happened to the offense (and running game).

    Seems to me a poor blocking TE/RB will hurt the T's numbers more than the G/C...so having this be the worst in the NFL will make running outside (i.e., tackle and end) would be difficult.
    Football is all about synergy. Replace a poor player with a great player and watch the surrounding players suddenly seem vastly improved. When you aren't coving for someone else, you can do YOUR JOB better.



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    You can basically pick any offensive play, isolate on Thomas, and its a near 100% guarantee you are going to watch a maestro at work. I do it all the time. AO doesn't have any fucking clue what he's talking about with Thomas. He's just doing his typical switcheroo to misconnecting stats (% of runs? WTF is that exactly?) to try and make a point while chastising others who quote stats with gems like, "I actually watch the game".

    Okay, AO, here's your challenge since you're the one dickwad who's been panning Thomas all year. Actually watch Thomas play football. Break down some game film, analyze it and post your results like a man. If it withstands a peer review on these forums, I'll change my signature to JOE THOMAS IS OVERRATED.

    If you won't do that (which you always refuse to because you can't stand being challenged) then just STFU about Thomas. Remember you are the only guy on the planet criticizing Thomas. Hell, its damn near libel at this stage. I may call my attorney on Joe's behalf.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    You can basically pick any offensive play, isolate on Thomas, and its a near 100% guarantee you are going to watch a maestro at work. I do it all the time. AO doesn't have any fucking clue what he's talking about with Thomas. He's just doing his typical switcheroo to misconnecting stats (% of runs? WTF is that exactly?) to try and make a point while chastising others who quote stats with gems like, "I actually watch the game".

    Okay, AO, here's your challenge since you're the one dickwad who's been panning Thomas all year. Actually watch Thomas play football. Break down some game film, analyze it and post your results like a man. If it withstands a peer review on these forums, I'll change my signature to JOE THOMAS IS OVERRATED.

    If you won't do that (which you always refuse to because you can't stand being challenged) then just STFU about Thomas. Remember you are the only guy on the planet criticizing Thomas. Hell, its damn near libel at this stage. I may call my attorney on Joe's behalf.

    I'm just not impressed by Joe Thomas since he's only made 8 pro bowls.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    You can basically pick any offensive play, isolate on Thomas, and its a near 100% guarantee you are going to watch a maestro at work. I do it all the time. AO doesn't have any fucking clue what he's talking about with Thomas. He's just doing his typical switcheroo to misconnecting stats (% of runs? WTF is that exactly?) to try and make a point while chastising others who quote stats with gems like, "I actually watch the game".

    Okay, AO, here's your challenge since you're the one dickwad who's been panning Thomas all year. Actually watch Thomas play football. Break down some game film, analyze it and post your results like a man. If it withstands a peer review on these forums, I'll change my signature to JOE THOMAS IS OVERRATED.

    If you won't do that (which you always refuse to because you can't stand being challenged) then just STFU about Thomas. Remember you are the only guy on the planet criticizing Thomas. Hell, its damn near libel at this stage. I may call my attorney on Joe's behalf.
    Joe Thomas is the one lineman in the game who I can watch on film and be thoroughly entertained. He's just not of this world.

    I remember last season against the Texans, only J.J Watt was getting any impact over on left side, and Hoyer was just pushing to his left when he felt the pressure coming. Trying to get more consistent pressure, they put Watt on Thomas - One play, he got duffed, and then went back to the other side. One play, and they gave up on J.J WATT doing anything on Thomas. I remember this season against the Raiders when he completely shut down Khalil Mack and Aldon Smith. Didn't matter who it was, neither got close. Mack has been unstoppable this season and you could see his frustration - He'd never taken on someone like Joe Thomas.

    The list of names is endless. Joe has taken on the best of the best and I don't recall ever saying "Joe didn't have a great day today."

    I'm still stunned anyone jumps on him. The motherfucker is bulletproof. There is a reason that dude is going to be in the hall of fame.

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    I'm late to this party but I'll get on the record with this:

    Keep Pettine. Demote or replace Farmer.

    This conclusion is based on the facts in Pett's favor and no emotion at all. Here are only a few:

    *Only got to pick his own starting QB once (Hoyer) before bright shiny toy QB and surrounding circus was foisted on him (more than likely) IN HIS FIRST YEAR AS COACH.
    *Lost Pro Bowl center in fourth game of first season.
    *Lost Pro Bowl phenom WR to egregious injustice (and had to deal with more circus not of his making or choosing).
    *Likely had dickhead OC foisted on him. (Do we really believe Pett didn't want Flip over Shanahan last year? Anyone?)
    *Front office passed on Khalil Mack in favor of Justin Gilbert. (Even if Pett "okayed" that move, does anyone REALLY believe Pett would have turned down the pass rusher for the CB? And even if he did love Gilbert, it's not the coach's job to know what kind of person the player is and then determine the probability of that player's success; that's the GM's job.)
    *Had to watch his preferred QB leave town in the most disrespectful way possible (GM wouldn't even meet with Hoyer).
    *Dealt with meddling GM text stupidity, first live as it happened and then the whole circus aftermath.
    *Watched four starters on D depart in FA. (Again, not coach's job to re-sign players.)
    *Lost starting LB, S, CB, WR(s) for long stretches of this year.
    *Oh, and lost starting QB in FIRST QUARTER OF FIRST GAME of his second season. Cue more Johnny circus.
    *Finally: the Johnny circus.

    Those are just some of the facts. Notice the thread in there? Where has most (all!) of the negative drama the last two years originated? Not on the field. Not in the locker room. Not by moves made by the coach.

    That's not saying Pettine's perfect on game day or can't improve as a coach but let's look at that list of complete and utter lunacy and be objective here:

    Could ANYONE have done SIGNIFICANTLY better given those circumstances? And should this coach be fired for not winning more given all those circumstances?

    No and no.

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    Quote Originally Posted by damajuki View Post
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    I'm late to this party but I'll get on the record with this:

    Keep Pettine. Demote or replace Farmer.

    This conclusion is based on the facts in Pett's favor and no emotion at all. Here are only a few:

    *Only got to pick his own starting QB once (Hoyer) before bright shiny toy QB and surrounding circus was foisted on him (more than likely) IN HIS FIRST YEAR AS COACH.
    *Lost Pro Bowl center in fourth game of first season.
    *Lost Pro Bowl phenom WR to egregious injustice (and had to deal with more circus not of his making or choosing).
    *Likely had dickhead OC foisted on him. (Do we really believe Pett didn't want Flip over Shanahan last year? Anyone?)
    *Front office passed on Khalil Mack in favor of Justin Gilbert. (Even if Pett "okayed" that move, does anyone REALLY believe Pett would have turned down the pass rusher for the CB? And even if he did love Gilbert, it's not the coach's job to know what kind of person the player is and then determine the probability of that player's success; that's the GM's job.)
    *Had to watch his preferred QB leave town in the most disrespectful way possible (GM wouldn't even meet with Hoyer).
    *Dealt with meddling GM text stupidity, first live as it happened and then the whole circus aftermath.
    *Watched four starters on D depart in FA. (Again, not coach's job to re-sign players.)
    *Lost starting LB, S, CB, WR(s) for long stretches of this year.
    *Oh, and lost starting QB in FIRST QUARTER OF FIRST GAME of his second season. Cue more Johnny circus.
    *Finally: the Johnny circus.

    Those are just some of the facts. Notice the thread in there? Where has most (all!) of the negative drama the last two years originated? Not on the field. Not in the locker room. Not by moves made by the coach.

    That's not saying Pettine's perfect on game day or can't improve as a coach but let's look at that list of complete and utter lunacy and be objective here:

    Could ANYONE have done SIGNIFICANTLY better given those circumstances? And should this coach be fired for not winning more given all those circumstances?

    No and no.


    Seems like him and Johnny have a pretty good relationship right now so I'm curious to see what happens in the future. Feels like the entire team is finally on board now.

    I would also feel pretty bad for a guy like Joe Thomas if ownership decided to bring in another coach and start things over.

    Would feel pretty good going into the off-season if Farmer was replaced and everything else was kept intact.


    Also, we're not going to be able to replace Pettine with a proven coach such as Gruden.

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    If the only change this team made was Farmer, I'd be blown away by the intelligence of such a move. That would be downright savvy.

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    Fire that fat ass dime a dozen knucklefuque Joe Thomas and admit rich got.it.correctamundo again......

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    I still feel like the whole party will stick around one more year and we will queue the blowup at the end of next season when (probably) nothing changes. I want like hell to believe in this staff but I just can't bring myself to. That starts with Farmer and his bunk draft picks/FA signings...
    Last edited by Enigmatic Evil; 12-18-2015 at 09:38 AM.
    BROWNS 2017: TIME TO SHIT THE BED IN ANOTHER DRAFT, YAY!
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    "My Mother's day card always says "Mum, I love you less than I love Joe Thomas. You can't even block, for fuck sakes." - brownsdownunder

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enigmatic Evil View Post
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    I still feel like the whole party will stick around one more year and we will queue the blowup at the end of next season when (probably) nothing changes. I want like hell to believe in this staff but I just can't bring myself to. That starts with Farmer and his bunk draft picks/FA signings...
    Like I said previously...

    If Manziel continues to grow and takes over the QB slot for years to come...Mack leaves and Erving moves into the C slot and holds it for years...neither of which are all that far fetched to believe...then the first round picks suddenly become 3 out of 4 and his drafts look pretty damn good.

    Let's not forget, Dansby/Whitner were both his key contributions and they played well and are still solid (although not as productive as last year). He also brought in McCown, resigned Barnidge, brought in Lee, brought in Pasztor, and is in obvious talks with Gipson and Benjamin. T.Williams was also a decent get and would have done well as the #2 CB (just not a #1 anymore).

    Not nearly as bad as it seems if you just focus on Bowe and Gilbert.
    Football is all about synergy. Replace a poor player with a great player and watch the surrounding players suddenly seem vastly improved. When you aren't coving for someone else, you can do YOUR JOB better.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Enigmatic Evil View Post
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    I still feel like the whole party will stick around one more year and we will queue the blowup at the end of next season when (probably) nothing changes. I want like hell to believe in this staff but I just can't bring myself to. That starts with Farmer and his bunk draft picks/FA signings...
    Would that be painful ......... yes
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    If's, and's, maybes and farfetched is nice but all in all. Manziel is still learning, outside that.... Erving might be our worst first round pick ever. With that, I get your optimism but I am just demanding a little more critical thinking.

    Dansby and Whitner were nice, but aging veterans who replaced younger and arguably equal talents. So... again, lets be critical, two or three decent signings does it make up for how many terrible signings like Bowe, Housler, etc? He doesn't deserve credit for Barnidge... Gary Barnidge deserves credit for his stellar play. Retaining a veteran will keep the roster stable but it doesn't do much to mend his record. Williams, well he is what he is, he was a bandaid because of a certain first round CB who has not panned out thus far.

    It's a total body of work, a lack of bringing in difference makers. Letting young talent leave and replacing it with guys entering the twilight of their careers. Mediocre drafts that leave much to be desired. If he hadn't gotten lucky with some UDFA's and late round picks... It's just really not worth bragging about to anyone. We are in a worse place than last year and his handiwork is largely responsible among other factors.

    Quote Originally Posted by DawgFan View Post
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    If Manziel continues to grow and takes over the QB slot for years to come...Mack leaves and Erving moves into the C slot and holds it for years...neither of which are all that far fetched to believe...then the first round picks suddenly become 3 out of 4 and his drafts look pretty damn good.

    Let's not forget, Dansby/Whitner were both his key contributions and they played well and are still solid (although not as productive as last year). He also brought in McCown, resigned Barnidge, brought in Lee, brought in Pasztor, and is in obvious talks with Gipson and Benjamin. T.Williams was also a decent get and would have done well as the #2 CB (just not a #1 anymore).

    Not nearly as bad as it seems if you just focus on Bowe and Gilbert.
    BROWNS 2017: TIME TO SHIT THE BED IN ANOTHER DRAFT, YAY!
    "I just do not get worked up over games anymore. I realized some time ago there is no point in getting worked up over them. I have no control over the outcome, it has no impact on me personally, and I have little to no actual facts to work from on properly analyzing the results." - Masters

    "My Mother's day card always says "Mum, I love you less than I love Joe Thomas. You can't even block, for fuck sakes." - brownsdownunder

    "Don't try to make me feel dumb for my opinion. You can kiss my ass." - MalcolmBrown

    "Hue and the guys are gonna turn that Frankenstein into a Frankenfine!" - next2nothing on RGIII

    WOOF WOOF WOOF!


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    Quote Originally Posted by DawgFan View Post
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    Mack leaves and Erving moves into the C slot and holds it for years...neither of which are all that far fetched to believe
    Dawg, I know you and I are about as big a pair of Browns homers you'll ever find, but seeing Erving replacing Mack is about as far fetched as you can get based on how the kid has played. You are literally hanging on his college resume to make any assumption about him being a bona fide quality NFL starter at this stage. He's been just awful when he's actually played. I get the rookie thing, the "out of position" thing, and the draft status thing but those three don't make me all warm and fuzzy about the guy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DawgFan View Post
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    Like I said previously...

    If Manziel continues to grow and takes over the QB slot for years to come...Mack leaves and Erving moves into the C slot and holds it for years...neither of which are all that far fetched to believe...then the first round picks suddenly become 3 out of 4 and his drafts look pretty damn good.

    Let's not forget, Dansby/Whitner were both his key contributions and they played well and are still solid (although not as productive as last year). He also brought in McCown, resigned Barnidge, brought in Lee, brought in Pasztor, and is in obvious talks with Gipson and Benjamin. T.Williams was also a decent get and would have done well as the #2 CB (just not a #1 anymore).

    Not nearly as bad as it seems if you just focus on Bowe and Gilbert.
    It's good to have someone who paints a rosy picture, that is you.

    It's also good to have some who paints a realistic picture, and that is me.

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    Grey...I get it...but he was playing G which typically is the road grader type player. Erving is NOT that guy. Period. He never played G in college. He also lost the OL coach just before the season started. I agree he has some developing to do, but I truly think a year in the NFL training system, and playing in a position he has experience in...he can be a starter at C.

    I am not saying he will be AS GOOD as Mack. THAT is a huge stretch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackOffense View Post
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    It's also good to have some who paints a pessimistic picture, and that is me.
    FIXED
    Football is all about synergy. Replace a poor player with a great player and watch the surrounding players suddenly seem vastly improved. When you aren't coving for someone else, you can do YOUR JOB better.



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