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Thread: Continuity - The one thing the Browns HAVEN'T tried!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fooleeze View Post
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    I don't think last night's game changed my position on the continuity thing. In fact, it might have strengthened it. My stance is the same as it has been, which reflects what the original posters on this thread said. We need a 3rd year out of this regime to 1: give them adequate opportunities to make their mark, and 2: Prove to other future candidates that you will have a chance to make your mark. The only change I think is reasonable at this time is a DC change.

    Last night's game made me believe that even more. Did you hear / see some of the information about the Bengals? I'm going to regurgitate some of the approximate stats. But before I do, remember that the Bengals had a LONGER and worse period of futility than the Browns did up until 6-7 years ago. With that. . .

    - Marvin Lewis was a sub-.500 coach through 6 season. . . in his 6th season they went 4-11. Did they fire him? No, they gave him a chance to succeed. Now he's been a coach for 13 seasons. The browns have had 6 coaches during that time. . . Davis, Crennel, Mangini, Shurmur, Chud, and now Pettine. The ONLY winning record in that time came in the 3rd season with Crennel / Savage. In year 4 they had a down year and were promptly fired. I remember after that 4-11 season being shocked that they kept Lewis. Well it's a good thing they did.

    - Andy Dalton is in his 5th year and hasn't missed a game. I believe the Browns have played 9 QBs in the same time. Dalton had his struggles, and even struggled in big games / prime time. But he learned, grew, matured. . . they may even win a playoff game this year. They built talent around him and gave him a chance to succeed.

    - There is some ridiculous amount of players on the Bengals who were signed / drafted by the bengals (never played for another team). It's like 47 of the 53 man roster. (Might be slightly wrong, but it's close). They are filling their team over time through the draft. (Not firing a regime, bringing in new players, dumping the old system players every 2 years). I can't even imagine what that number is for the Browns. . . what, maybe 20 - 25 players?

    THAT is why the Browns continue to struggle, and THAT is why I want a 3rd year with a consistent GM and coach.

    So yes, right now, I want continuity for continuity's sake.

    Continuity in losing is not My idea of continuity.. No thanks..
    " There are no old running QB's in the NFL " ~ Sam Rutigliano. "
    I pray someone takes a stack of SPARQ stats, and shoves them up smug Sashi Browns tight asshole" ~TBPP



    Its Offense baby!!!!!" "ITS
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    I'm also frustrated with some comments I hear from media. I watched the '5th quarter' on the Cleveland station after the game last night and Bernie was using this platform to sound off on some 'systemic issue with the culture. . . ' Man it was not a good look for Bernie. A few days ago Tony Rizzo on ESPN 850 did the same thing complaining about the CULTURE.

    Do you know what the Culture is with the Browns? Here it is:

    - Hire a regime, give them a short leash and high expectations
    - When they scramble to meet the high expectations, and ultimately can't deliver in the short timeframe expected, fire them.
    - wash, rinse, repeat.

    So, Tony Rizzo and Bernie Kosar. . . HOW do you change the culture? And don't tell me "Fire Pettine/Farmer" because that only perpetuates the culture that has become the Cleveland Browns.

    I'm getting more and more frustrated as this season goes on, not precisely because of the losses. But because I know the losses are ultimately going to result in the continuation of the culture that has become the Cleveland Browns. If they keep losing, in 2 years we'll be in the exact same place: new GM, new Coach, same results. . . wash, rinse, repeat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brownsdownunder View Post
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    I hate screamers. They never get through, and they usually end up mentally destroying young players. That's something I personally relate to, the more aggressive teachers and adult influences made, and still make, me extremely uncomfortable. Very, very few people thrive in such circumstances.

    And we're not even a good team. The last thing we need is a screamer on a shit team.

    The best are laid back and confident. They put in the work and then stand by it, good or bad. That's exactly what we need on a team inches from a complete rebuild on both sides of the ball.



    I don't think "screamer" was the word that should have been used. I would love to just see us find a coach that coaches hard. Shows emotion and coaches them up during the game, hugs them later. An Arians, Cowher, Sean Peyton, Gruden, Carroll, Tomlin type. Right now, we look like we are playing laid back and not confident. Most of the stoic guys you see coaching have an incredible roster to do it with IMO, a little heart and emotion goes a long way with a bad team at times. Maybe Pettine should take control of the defense and change his stance a little bit.....Attitude reflects leadership

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    Can we stop comparing our HC's to Marvin Lewis? The guy took over a 1 win team and went 8-8, 8-8, 11-5 and 8-8 his first four seasons. He then had to rebuild his team, two times. Pettine is going to become Marvin Lewis? No. The guy doesn't have it. We yet again have a shit GM and a fucking retard for a HC who when his QB is actually moving the ball still won't support him. The reality is the offseason will come down to Pettine vs JFF. I wanted Pettine for years and hated JFF but you gotta go with the one producing. Get someone that better fits the QB and a GM who will get more talent around the QB. Or we can be the Iggles and trade JFF so Pettine can have "his type" at QB.

    You decide.

    I say Pettine and Buh Buh Ray Farmer and his shitty drafts can gtfo of Cleveland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatkid View Post
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    I don't think "screamer" was the word that should have been used. I would love to just see us find a coach that coaches hard. Shows emotion and coaches them up during the game, hugs them later. An Arians, Cowher, Sean Peyton, Gruden, Carroll, Tomlin type. Right now, we look like we are playing laid back and not confident. Most of the stoic guys you see coaching have an incredible roster to do it with IMO, a little heart and emotion goes a long way with a bad team at times. Maybe Pettine should take control of the defense and change his stance a little bit.....Attitude reflects leadership
    Pettine's got plenty of emotion and toughness. That's not the issue. The comportment of the coach doesn't make my top 100. How shit the team is fills out my top 10.

    Attitude does not reflect leadership. I hate that phrase. Attitude reflects self. If you don't want it on your own, you're going to be on your own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brownsdownunder View Post
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    Pettine's got plenty of emotion and toughness. That's not the issue. The comportment of the coach doesn't make my top 100. How shit the team is fills out my top 10.

    Attitude does not reflect leadership. I hate that phrase. Attitude reflects self. If you don't want it on your own, you're going to be on your own.

    A team reflects the attitude of its HC.. And so far.. I'm not impressed with Pettine.. At all.. He's a loser.
    " There are no old running QB's in the NFL " ~ Sam Rutigliano. "
    I pray someone takes a stack of SPARQ stats, and shoves them up smug Sashi Browns tight asshole" ~TBPP



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    Quote Originally Posted by nickers View Post
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    A team reflects the attitude of its HC.. And so far.. I'm not impressed with Pettine.. At all.. He's a loser.
    Wouldn't you like to see this defense actually get pissed off? They look like it's a daytime business meeting in a conference room.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nickers View Post
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    A team reflects the attitude of its HC.. And so far.. I'm not impressed with Pettine.. At all.. He's a loser.
    A team reflects the attitude of the players on that team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackOffense View Post
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    Wouldn't you like to see this defense actually get pissed off? They look like it's a daytime business meeting in a conference room.
    I look at this D and it reminds me of Camp Creampuff under Romeo Crennel. The whole team does.

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    Some tidbits from Pettine.

    - Hasn't spoken to Haslam yet, will speak with him likely this weekend. Fuck yeah. It means Jimmy isn't jumping down everyone's throats.

    - Pettine has spoken with the coordinators before having a few days off and addressed what they will talk about next week.

    - Said Johnny graded out very highly in the first half, but then fell off over the last 15 passes.

    - Said they will talk about the QB position early next week, and decide from there who will start.

    - Said WR group did not play well, obviously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangelo930 View Post
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    Jimmy needs to, for once, have an actual solution to a problem before taking action. Take a breath, think first, then act.
    Exceptionally well said.

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    http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300...h-mike-pettine

    For the long suffering Cleveland Browns' fans now sitting at 2-7, coming off a third straight double-digit loss, this time by in-state rival Cincinnati on national television -- the valid question becomes ... Where do we go from here?

    I would suggest the time honored phrase of "When you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is to stop digging," as a good start.

    I am sure the steady drumbeat of fire the coach, fire the GM or heck, just fire someone will resound loudly on the Cleveland and national airwaves and columns. In my opinion, you'd only be making it worse by continuing to dig.

    Since the Browns were reconstituted in 1999, they have had three owners, eight head coaches and half a dozen general managers and personnel directors. More recently, they have fired Eric Mangini after two years, Pat Shurmur after two years, and Rob Chudzinski after just one year. By all means, go ahead and fire Mike Pettine after just two seasons. That seems to be working real well for you. What is the definition of insanity? Repeating the same act over and over again while expecting a different outcome.

    Cleveland, just stop digging!


    I know the numbers don't look good over the last 16 games. Pettine and the Browns are 4-12 and their offense has rookie-type numbers of 58 percent completions, 16 TDs to 17 interceptions and 44 sacks.

    But if you look at their first eight games under Pettine, it is a different story. If you take the eight games and expand it into an entire season, they would be 10-6 with 20 TDs to eight interceptions and just 28 sacks.

    Start over, but do it with Pettine and GM Ray Farmer in place. The Browns fans are worn out with the "new coach new approach" theme -- at least they should be. And you have to ask yourself, who are you going to replace them with? Gruden? Cowher? Parcells? Dungy? None of them are going to take this job. Let's remember, Pettine only got the job after both Adam Gase and Josh McDaniels removed themselves from consideration. A pretty telling move considering both of them preferred to remain as offensive coordinators rather than to become head coach in Cleveland.

    Even still. Football has been, is now and will always be about talent, and more specifically, the talent at the quarterback position. And the key is identifying that talent in the first year. What I am advocating is you treat this like the first year. Choosing an NFL quarterback is a 50/50 proposition. They have drafted four first-round quarterbacks, two of which are no longer in the league (Tim Couch and Brady Quinn), while the other two (Brandon Weeden and Johnny Manziel) have all but removed any doubt that they are not starting NFL-caliber players. So, you were on the wrong side of the equation with the last four quarterback selections -- as they say in baseball -- you are due! Maybe you will be on the positive side of choosing between a fairly large group of quarterbacks in the 2016 draft -- Paxton Lynch from Memphis State, Jared Goff from Cal, Connor Cook from Michigan State or maybe Christian Hackenberg from Penn State. Just don't do it with the 22nd overall pick (Quinn in 2007, Weeden in 2012, and Manziel in 2014). What was the definition of insanity?

    In fairness, Manziel was better last night, kind of. He went from 10-of-18 (55%) with 0 TDs and two INTs and converting just 1-of-10 on third down last year against Cincinnati to a night where he was 15-of-33 (45%) with one TD and converted 4-of-13 on third down. At least they are in a position to determine over the next seven games if Manziel is an NFL player or not. Although, based on their actions, I think they have already decided.

    While Cleveland was selecting Manziel with the 22nd pick, the Raiders (maybe the only other organization that had dug a bigger hole than Cleveland) hit the jackpot with the 36th overall pick in Derek Carr. The QB who beat the Browns last night, Andy Dalton, was the 35th pick of the 2011 draft. Both second-round picks, and probably where Manziel should have been drafted in the first place.

    Cleveland, do yourself a favor and just stop digging!

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    I think teams like Cincinnati prove that putting together a winning team is like putting together a 5000 piece puzzle. Start a 5000 piece puzzle then after 2 hours tear it a part and tell someone else to start building the puzzle. Then after 2 hours tear it apart again and ask a different person to start building that puzzle. . . well, when is that puzzle every going to get built?

    We've torn our puzzle apart every 2 years for a decade now. It's time to see what that puzzle looks like with more pieces in it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fooleeze View Post
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    I think teams like Cincinnati prove that putting together a winning team is like putting together a 5000 piece puzzle. Start a 5000 piece puzzle then after 2 hours tear it a part and tell someone else to start building the puzzle. Then after 2 hours tear it apart again and ask a different person to start building that puzzle. . . well, when is that puzzle every going to get built?

    We've torn our puzzle apart every 2 years for a decade now. It's time to see what that puzzle looks like with more pieces in it.
    Building a team like Cincy reflects a front office that knows how to select quality players in the NFL draft. That's what it reflects.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fooleeze View Post
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    I think teams like Cincinnati prove that putting together a winning team is like putting together a 5000 piece puzzle. Start a 5000 piece puzzle then after 2 hours tear it a part and tell someone else to start building the puzzle. Then after 2 hours tear it apart again and ask a different person to start building that puzzle. . . well, when is that puzzle every going to get built?

    We've torn our puzzle apart every 2 years for a decade now. It's time to see what that puzzle looks like with more pieces in it.
    That's a brilliant analogy. Well said. I'm going to steal that one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackOffense View Post
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    Building a team like Cincy reflects a front office that knows how to select quality players in the NFL draft. That's what it reflects.
    It's easy to say that when you're referencing a front office and GM that has had THIRTEEN YEARS (13) to figure out how to get it right.

    (Remember, at 6 years into their regime, they had a 4-12 season)
    Last edited by Fooleeze; 11-06-2015 at 02:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fooleeze View Post
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    It's easy to say that when you're referencing a front office and GM that has had THIRTEEN YEARS (13) to figure out how to get it right.
    Wrong. Pure revision to set an agenda, again. Marvin Lewis, acting as HC and defacto GM got it done from day one. Lewis inherited a ragtag 2-14 team and in one season went 8-8, then 8-8, 11-5, 8-8 and 7-9 before having to rebuild. There was no 13 or 5 or even two years to figure it out. He took over a horrible team and in one season turned it around, by year two had them a missed FG from a winning season and had them in the playoffs year three. Pettine and Farmer have us 2-7 in year two. Neither one is half the GM or HC Lewis(whom btw I wanted us to steal away when he was testing free agency, instead our President hired his nephew) is. If they were? Fucking aye, continue with 'em.

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    We're going to refer to Cincy's front office as a model to follow now?

    Mike Brown was an unmitigated disaster in the dual role of owner/GM. Cincy's faithful used to hang signs in the stadium that read, "101-187-1 ... HIRE A GM!" as recently as 2009. A deeper look into Cincy's recent elevation in identifying talent reveals a shift in Brown's approach. He has been steadily increasing Lewis' role in personnel decisions while reducing his own and that of his daughter who is team president or something.

    Cincy's continuity with Lewis is the difference. Lewis is likely the guy with the biggest vote on player decisions now. At least that's my take. I mean, check out this exchange from the Hard Knocks back in '09:

    Owner Mike Brown agreed to let the cable network feature his team in this year's training-camp series, hoping it would boost the Bengals' image. So far, the lasting images have come from two brief, behind-closed-door moments that illustrate how things work.

    Whether it's picking the players or signing the draft picks, the family calls the shots.

    The first glimpse came from a staff meeting after two tight ends got hurt. The camera shows Brown sitting at the front of the room, watched by coaches and other team officials. Brown starts the meeting with a surprise.

    "This is a wild thought," Brown says, then suggests they move defensive end Chris Harrington to tight end.

    Coach Marvin Lewis physically recoils at the suggestion, his mouth dropping open for a telltale second. He wearily rubs his left hand across the top of his head, but says nothing.

    Brown asks for a response from the assistant coaches, who are caught off-guard. They say that Harrington moves a little stiffly, but has good hands and is fast. That's exactly what Brown wants to hear.

    "He can run pretty well," Brown says. "By tight end standards, he can run really well."

    Brown decides to try his experiment.

    "Probably what it means is we'll go with two fullbacks at the end and three tight ends instead of four," Brown says. "It just is a little different way of getting lined up, but I think that's where this takes us."

    The camera pulls away. End of discussion.

    The vignette lasted only a minute out of the initial one-hour show, but reinforced perceptions of how the organization is run. When the owner offers his "wild thought," everyone speaks carefully -- or not at all -- so as not to contradict the boss.

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    Quote Originally Posted by King of Kings View Post
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    Wrong. Pure revision to set an agenda, again. Marvin Lewis, acting as HC and defacto GM got it done from day one. Lewis inherited a ragtag 2-14 team and in one season went 8-8, then 8-8, 11-5, 8-8 and 7-9 before having to rebuild. There was no 13 or 5 or even two years to figure it out. He took over a horrible team and in one season turned it around, by year two had them a missed FG from a winning season and had them in the playoffs year three. Pettine and Farmer have us 2-7 in year two. Neither one is half the GM or HC Lewis(whom btw I wanted us to steal away when he was testing free agency, instead our President hired his nephew) is. If they were? Fucking aye, continue with 'em.
    He also inherited a team that had Chad Johnson, Rudi Johnson, Corey Dillon, TJ Houshmandzadeh, Jon Kitna just to name a few. They retained the OC and started Jon Kitna, drafted Carson Palmer.

    Let's look at that again, their OC was there in 2001, 2002. . . they changed HCs to Marvin Lewis, and the OC continued until 2010. They had the same OC for 10 years!!!

    They went 8-8 in year 1, and in year 2 they started off 2-6. Doesn't sound very far off from where Farmer/Pettine started, with much less talent on the team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fooleeze View Post
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    He also inherited a team that had Chad Johnson, Rudi Johnson, Corey Dillon, TJ Houshmandzadeh, Jon Kitna just to name a few. They retained the OC and started Jon Kitna, drafted Carson Palmer.

    Let's look at that again, their OC was there in 2001, 2002. . . they changed HCs to Marvin Lewis, and the OC continued until 2010. They had the same OC for 10 years!!!

    They went 8-8 in year 1, and in year 2 they started off 2-6. Doesn't sound very far off from where Farmer/Pettine started, with much less talent on the team.
    The difference for the Bengals: SMART DRAFTING OF PLAYERS!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    We're going to refer to Cincy's front office as a model to follow now?

    Mike Brown was an unmitigated disaster in the dual role of owner/GM. Cincy's faithful used to hang signs in the stadium that read, "101-187-1 ... HIRE A GM!" as recently as 2009. A deeper look into Cincy's recent elevation in identifying talent reveals a shift in Brown's approach. He has been steadily increasing Lewis' role in personnel decisions while reducing his own and that of his daughter who is team president or something.

    Cincy's continuity with Lewis is the difference. Lewis is likely the guy with the biggest vote on player decisions now. At least that's my take. I mean, check out this exchange from the Hard Knocks back in '09:
    Totally wrong. Duke Tobin, director of player personnel, is the MVP in the Bengals front office.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brownsdownunder View Post
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    I agree with Billick that we should have stopped digging a long time ago. But by now, with Pettine in charge, we are only a few inches from China.
    "A pessimist is one who says: 'Things can't get worse.' And an optimist is one who says, 'Yes they can.'" Alan Dershowitz

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fooleeze View Post
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    He also inherited a team that had Chad Johnson, Rudi Johnson, Corey Dillon, TJ Houshmandzadeh, Jon Kitna just to name a few. They retained the OC and started Jon Kitna, drafted Carson Palmer.

    Let's look at that again, their OC was there in 2001, 2002. . . they changed HCs to Marvin Lewis, and the OC continued until 2010. They had the same OC for 10 years!!!

    They went 8-8 in year 1, and in year 2 they started off 2-6. Doesn't sound very far off from where Farmer/Pettine started, with much less talent on the team.
    You mean the same Chad Johnson who was average before him, a Pro Bowler under him and pure garbage after the Bengals? The Chad who can't read a playbook yet Lewis found a way to accomodate? The same Rudi Johnson who fell apart after 2005? The same disgruntled Corey Dillon who demanded a trade until he got it? The same TJ Houshmanzadeh that was almost cut in 2002, became a Pro bowler under Lewis, left the Bengals for the $$$ and fell on his face outside of Lewis system? It is what it is, Marvin Lewis took over a group of guys that look and played like garbage and molded them into an elite team. Then rebuilt in 2007. Then again in 2010. Each time quickly retooling and quickly building a winning program.

    Btw that wonderful Jon Kitna was bounced from how many teams? And that oh so great OC that Lewis wanted fired for 8 years finally was, then from two other teams... And is no longer in the NFL. He is also largely considered the achilles heel holding that team back for 10 years. Yay for continuity. Amazing soon as they bucked continuity and mediocrity(what some of you are begging for) they haven't had a losing season since. By your standards they should have kept their shitty OC for even longer, eventually he would have figured it out. Right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by King of Kings View Post
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    You mean the same Chad Johnson who was average before him, a Pro Bowler under him and pure garbage after the Bengals? The Chad who can't read a playbook yet Lewis found a way to accomodate? The same Rudi Johnson who fell apart after 2005? The same disgruntled Corey Dillon who demanded a trade until he got it? The same TJ Houshmanzadeh that was almost cut in 2002, became a Pro bowler under Lewis, left the Bengals for the $$$ and fell on his face outside of Lewis system? It is what it is, Marvin Lewis took over a group of guys that look and played like garbage and molded them into an elite team. Then rebuilt in 2007. Then again in 2010. Each time quickly retooling and quickly building a winning program.

    Btw that wonderful Jon Kitna was bounced from how many teams? And that oh so great OC that Lewis wanted fired for 8 years finally was, then from two other teams... And is no longer in the NFL. He is also largely considered the achilles heel holding that team back for 10 years. Yay for continuity. Amazing soon as they bucked continuity and mediocrity(what some of you are begging for) they haven't had a losing season since. By your standards they should have kept their shitty OC for even longer, eventually he would have figured it out. Right?

    Haha. . . see, we're both good at revision to support our agendas. We'll agree to disagree. My point is only that the Bengals have demonstrated patience and continuity at all times over the past 13+ years and it has paid off for them. Yes, some coaches turn over, they cut bait with coaches and players when they pass their prime or reach their ceiling, but not after giving them sufficient opportunity to succeed or fail.

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