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Thread: Maybe why Browns staff not to keen to play Manziel

  1. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Eden View Post
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    "Retired NFL defensive end Stephen White took a closer look at Johnny Football's big game against the Bengals last week and found a young quarterback who isn't ready to start."

    So a retired defensive end who few have even heard of is the gold standard of breaking down film of a young QB?
    Who said gold standard? He's eminently more qualified than any of us for sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Eden View Post
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    This team wouldn't make the playoffs with Tom Freaking Brady at QB.
    No it would not. For a year I've read on this board that Edelman and Gronkowsi are just mediocre talents and that is ridiculous. Even the players picked Edelman as one of the best 100 players in the NFL.

    it still amazes me that the Patriots offensive line with about three rookies and some journeymen can look good and the Browns OL with all these good players looks like dogshit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackOffense View Post
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    Totally disagree with that statement. A lot of QBs have had terrible rookie seasons. A guy named Manning comes to mind ...
    You shouldn't totally disagree. That's ignorant. You could qualitatively disagree and include a qualification. I'll help educate you.

    Scenario One. Young QB is struggling to show material improvement in understanding the NFL game. The reads. The timing. The mental, "chess" elements of the game. In practice and in brief appearances the staff is, indeed, seeing incremental improvement but its just that: incremental. They determine that the young QB is either a) not going to develop or b) the timetable for his development is too long/steep to justify continued investment. They move on.

    This is the scenario that probably 90+% of never-made-it QB's go through. Its just not typical for one drafted in round one. This is our "worst case" scenario with Manziel and may be reality. I sure hope it isn't, but it certainly is a viable scenario.

    Scenario Two. Young QB is showing growth in these same areas. Difference in this scenario is the staff feels the rate of development being exhibited by the QB warrants continued investment. This QB gets his 12-16 starts (or whatever) because of the confidence the staff has in getting a return on this investment. This is the experience most 1st rounders go through. They can still flame out as you would acknowledge I believe, but they get a longer leash. Obviously, I hope this is Manziel's actual path but due to his very young age, fewer college starts than average, and not coming from an NFL oriented college system they are taking him slow.

    We'll see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackOffense View Post
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    I sometimes miss on players, but not a whole lot. Remember all the bashing I took for saying Terrence West and Isiah Crowell were mediocre.
    You should start a website and document this uber track record. You'd make some good money AO!

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    Quote Originally Posted by PlaygroundLegend View Post
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    BDUs breakdown clearly lacked an agenda

    I can't say the same for this article
    Does not answer my question to you. Which of the breakdowns do you disagree with?

  6. #54
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    We, as fans, make a lot of assumptions and 'decisions' on players' abilities without really thinking about the whole picture (because we don't see it, and we don't know it).

    I posted earlier that Johnny can learn from these mistakes and only then can he show us what his true potential will be. But what don't we see? Practice.

    What if. . . what if that 'hot read' to Benjamin was run in practice 10 times last week, and each time he was told "if there's a blitz, hit the hot crossing receiver quickly. . . " time and time again. Then when the play happened in a game, he completely ignored that.

    That's a bad sign. THAT is what Pettine sees. . . they work on stuff in practice, and it doesn't translate into games. . . and that would be exactly why Pettine wants McCown to start if he's healthy. Maybe Pettine sees that all this coaching just isn't getting through to him, and he doesn't think he's ready to start games.

    I'll trust whoever the team decides to put behind Center on Sunday, because they see the whole picture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBestPlayersPlay View Post
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    BDU is not a NFL vet of 7 years. I love him, but come on PGL.

    Again, there really is not much to argue when it comes to the tape. There was some positive spin we could weave to make ourselves feel better about Johnny, but he is a long way off.

    As far as "game reps" Grey ...yah I heard that too. And it's obviously true, but you need to be able to run a functional offense and have the basics down in order to grow on the field of play ...otherwise all that you are doing is developing bad habits.
    When you look at that breakdown and the misses, sure, experience should improve those. But these weren't items guys are supposed to be learning at the NFL level. These are missed reads on basics. Basics Madden football games will teach you. That's the depressing part of it. As the author of the breakdown points on, most of the misses appear to be on who is the primary read, who got open just as its designed to do.

    So on one hand I will hear JM is not a practice player, but when the lights come on he is. But in the next missing fundamental easy reads are from a lack of experience. So that kind of leaves the following:

    a) JM at this stage still doesn't understand basics of simply offensive plays
    b) JM understands them but is freezing up in live action
    c) JM still simply cannot/will not play within structure

    At the end of the day the breakdown that guy did can at least give an open minded person something to contemplate as to why the staff might not want to hand the keys over to JM.

  8. #56
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    Mr Bill & Tom would have us in the playoffs. they got this $hit figured out. Mr Bill might have kicked half these guys out in July and picked up coachable players. what they have done these past 15 years drafting at the bottom, signing the Right players & garbage picking speaks for itself.
    Always remember sports are like women:
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    the most important reading you might ever do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by madmadworld View Post
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    Mr Bill & Tom would have us in the playoffs.
    Probably true, but Brady would need Bill. He couldn't do it on his own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by next2nothing View Post
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    This makes me think you didn't even skim, let alone, read the article that Masters posted. If you did you would see that Manziel had guys open and just missed them.

    These are all examples straight from that article.



    Hit Duke and that's at least a solid gain of 7 or 8 yards.



    Again, hit Benji right away and that could turn into a big play given Benji's speed.



    Holy fuck this is one of the worst out of the whole article. Duke is wide open and has two guys who could potentially turn into blockers right in front of him.



    I GUESS you can say the safety is lurking but this should be an easy TD. This was the play where Manziel scrambled around then ultimately got the TD to Duke. Yeah, awesome that we got the TD, but the easier play is right in front of him.


    This kid doesn't have it. Admit it. Move on. The Browns will gain nothing by trying to force this shit to happen.
    I won't go as far as to say the kid doesn't have it. Though what these examples show (and as the author noted there were many more that could be used) is the learning curve and where JM is in it.

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    On a NFL field JF looks like Kevin James on a dance floor. entertaining at times but mostly not pretty.
    Always remember sports are like women:
    High School all the girls play,
    NCAA only good looking girls play,
    Pro's only the Super Models play !

    the most important reading you might ever do.
    http://web.archive.org/web/201607010.../genescott.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Masters View Post
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    I won't go as far as to say the kid doesn't have it. Though what these examples show (and as the author noted there were many more that could be used) is the learning curve and where JM is in it.
    It's all stupid. If you would decide to cherry-pick throws of Winston, Mariota, Carr, Bridgewater, Bortles et al you don't think you'd find the same thing! And they have a much better group of skill players around them! Heck, Manziel had a game or two like Mariota against Cleveland, but people are raving about Mariota and trashing Manziel! It's all ridiculous at this stage! Given the evaluation methods by people on this board, after 4 starts you all probably would have cut John Elway and Peyton Manning, for christ's sake! Manziel needs another 10-15 games and a better supporting cast before anyone can evaluate anything.

    Here is Peyton Manning's QB rating his first 6 games: 58, 51, 39, 63, 66, 62.
    Manziel's QB rating so far is around 83.

    This argument is absurd!
    Last edited by AttackOffense; 11-13-2015 at 11:55 AM.

  13. #61
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    AO
    What changed your mind about JF ?
    i don't remember you being a supporter of his last year or ever.
    Always remember sports are like women:
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    NCAA only good looking girls play,
    Pro's only the Super Models play !

    the most important reading you might ever do.
    http://web.archive.org/web/201607010.../genescott.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by madmadworld View Post
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    On a NFL field JF looks like Kevin James on a dance floor. entertaining at times but mostly not pretty.
    And neither do his wide receivers, running backs and offensive line!

    Football is a TEAM game. It seems a lot of people don't get that!

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    Quote Originally Posted by madmadworld View Post
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    AO
    What changed your mind about JF ?
    i don't remember you being a supporter of his last year or ever.
    Of course I was not a supporter of Manziel last year. He looked horrible.

    What changed my mind was watching him play! He's much better! But as a young kid trying to make it in the business world, and it is a business, he should have stayed in Cleveland last week studying the Steelers defense to show management he is serious about the job. That's what you do in the corporate world if you want to impress your bosses and get promoted!

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackOffense View Post
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    And neither do his wide receivers, running backs and offensive line!

    Football is a TEAM game. It seems a lot of people don't get that!
    Some of us understand that but this kid looks like He's 5-8 has NO Leadership Qualities at this level. and i know/think you would never confuse JF for Winston, Mariota, Carr, Bridgewater, Bortles my guess you would take any of them now or in a draft having your choice. right ?
    Always remember sports are like women:
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    Pro's only the Super Models play !

    the most important reading you might ever do.
    http://web.archive.org/web/201607010.../genescott.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Eden View Post
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    This team wouldn't make the playoffs with Tom Freaking Brady at QB.
    We might, if we film everyones plays and practices and illegally deflate footballs for him, and the NFL Officials make sure to turn a blind eye to holding as they long have in New England games then I am sure the San Fran queer would look just as good on the Browns. Take all that away and no, he probably will look like shit.

  18. #66
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    Two things:

    First, now that I have finally posted in this thread, surely the lecture that we need to keep discussion of quarterbacks in the QB thread will soon follow.

    Second, it is amazing how the board discussion can turn on a dime depending on the decision of the head coach. Just a couple of days ago, the forum was almost unanimous in agreement that Manziel should start the rest of the year.

    However, now that it has become clear that Pettine has decided to start McCown in Pittsburgh, there is suddenly a groundswell of posters heralding a slanted breakdown by some agenda driven defensive genius while showing support of Pettine's decision to start the wounded McCown on the basis that "the coaches" must have seen something in practice that us fans have not seen nor would recognize as significant--but that is fundamental to rightly going away from Manziel.
    "A pessimist is one who says: 'Things can't get worse.' And an optimist is one who says, 'Yes they can.'" Alan Dershowitz

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    Quote Originally Posted by madmadworld View Post
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    Mr Bill & Tom would have us in the playoffs. they got this $hit figured out. Mr Bill might have kicked half these guys out in July and picked up coachable players. what they have done these past 15 years drafting at the bottom, signing the Right players & garbage picking speaks for itself.
    Long as they can bring their camera crews and "The Deflator" with them.....

  20. #68
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    We understand.
    but I would like to see him play. so we would lose all the games draft 1-5 in 2016.
    my guess he would make it thru 4-5 games then be hurt out for the last games. would have been nice if he could have been like RG3 had 1 cool season.
    Always remember sports are like women:
    High School all the girls play,
    NCAA only good looking girls play,
    Pro's only the Super Models play !

    the most important reading you might ever do.
    http://web.archive.org/web/201607010.../genescott.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by King of Kings View Post
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    Long as they can bring their camera crews and "The Deflator" with them.....
    Just Win Baby
    Always remember sports are like women:
    High School all the girls play,
    NCAA only good looking girls play,
    Pro's only the Super Models play !

    the most important reading you might ever do.
    http://web.archive.org/web/201607010.../genescott.htm

  22. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by King of Kings View Post
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    We might, if we film everyones plays and practices and illegally deflate footballs for him, and the NFL Officials make sure to turn a blind eye to holding as they long have in New England games then I am sure the San Fran queer would look just as good on the Browns. Take all that away and no, he probably will look like shit.
    This post is one funny piece of shit.
    "A pessimist is one who says: 'Things can't get worse.' And an optimist is one who says, 'Yes they can.'" Alan Dershowitz

  23. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldDawgCliff View Post
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    Two things:
    Second, it is amazing how the board discussion can turn on a dime depending on the decision of the head coach. Just a couple of days ago, the forum was almost unanimous in agreement that Manziel should start the rest of the year.

    However, now that it has become clear that Pettine has decided to start McCown in Pittsburgh, there is suddenly a groundswell of posters heralding a slanted breakdown by some agenda driven defensive genius while showing support of Pettine's decision to start the wounded McCown on the basis that "the coaches" must have seen something in practice that us fans have not seen nor would recognize as significant--but that is fundamental to rightly going away from Manziel.
    First, let me say I posted this before seeing who CLE is starting at QB. I just happened upon that breakdown of the plays. Secondly, I haven't posted in several weeks, so I have no idea what the swell has been of folks. Third, as the author points out, and is a reality, what we think we see on TV and get excited or pissed about is not always reality because we don't get all 22 views during a game which lets one see the route combinations, or what the O and D are really doing on any given play.

    No one is "heralding" the breakdown.

    How is that former 7 year NFL vets breakdown "slanted"? You really cannot slat what the film shows. What is the "agenda"? If one simply reads that breakdown with an open mind it simply shows there are basic reads that are being missed, which might explain why Pettine said what he said before half time, what he, Flip, and even Manziel said post, and why the staff at this point might want to stick with McCown at this very moment in time.

  24. #72
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    The Manning argument is so horribly weak. Go back and watch his first season and tell me his QB play didn't scream franchise QB.

    Stats. lol

    Also, lol @ this hyperbole:

    Quote Originally Posted by OldDawgCliff View Post
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    a slanted breakdown by some agenda driven defensive genius while showing support of Pettine's decision to start the wounded McCown on the basis that "the coaches" must have seen something in practice that us fans have not seen nor would recognize as significant--but that is fundamental to rightly going away from Manziel
    Last edited by TheBestPlayersPlay; 11-13-2015 at 01:24 PM.

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