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Thread: Maybe why Browns staff not to keen to play Manziel

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldDawgCliff View Post
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    Two things:

    First, now that I have finally posted in this thread, surely the lecture that we need to keep discussion of quarterbacks in the QB thread will soon follow.

    Second, it is amazing how the board discussion can turn on a dime depending on the decision of the head coach. Just a couple of days ago, the forum was almost unanimous in agreement that Manziel should start the rest of the year.

    However, now that it has become clear that Pettine has decided to start McCown in Pittsburgh, there is suddenly a groundswell of posters heralding a slanted breakdown by some agenda driven defensive genius while showing support of Pettine's decision to start the wounded McCown on the basis that "the coaches" must have seen something in practice that us fans have not seen nor would recognize as significant--but that is fundamental to rightly going away from Manziel.
    Exactly

    For some reason people think Pettine knows what he is talking about over everyone and anyone else..

    Pettine could tell everyone that Connor Shaw is a Franchise QB and everyone would lap it up.

    I have no idea why Pettine has such a strong following.

    The time has come! Our Dynasty lies ahead!

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    Quote Originally Posted by PlaygroundLegend View Post
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    Exactly

    For some reason people think Pettine knows what he is talking about over everyone and anyone else..

    Pettine could tell everyone that Connor Shaw is a Franchise QB and everyone would lap it up.

    I have no idea why Pettine has such a strong following.
    Who the hell is "everyone and anyone else"? "Everyone and anyone else" seems to be made up by a majority who don't think Manziel is the guy. A lot of folks would love Bill Cowher to coach this team. We all know what he said recently about Manziel.

    And why do we take some credence from one of 32 guys being paid to coach an NFL team about NFL players? Because we're stupid I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldDawgCliff View Post
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    Two things:

    First, now that I have finally posted in this thread, surely the lecture that we need to keep discussion of quarterbacks in the QB thread will soon follow.

    Second, it is amazing how the board discussion can turn on a dime depending on the decision of the head coach. Just a couple of days ago, the forum was almost unanimous in agreement that Manziel should start the rest of the year.

    However, now that it has become clear that Pettine has decided to start McCown in Pittsburgh, there is suddenly a groundswell of posters heralding a slanted breakdown by some agenda driven defensive genius while showing support of Pettine's decision to start the wounded McCown on the basis that "the coaches" must have seen something in practice that us fans have not seen nor would recognize as significant--but that is fundamental to rightly going away from Manziel.
    For the record -- I still want to see Manziel start and think he should start the rest of the season. I am only speculating on what I have seen transpire over the last several weeks that I don't think we're going to see anywhere near as much Manziel as we want to/should see. I think Johnny will be off the team by opening day of next season. Not saying I WANT that to happen in any way, I just think it WILL happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by madmadworld View Post
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    Some of us understand that but this kid looks like He's 5-8 has NO Leadership Qualities at this level. and i know/think you would never confuse JF for Winston, Mariota, Carr, Bridgewater, Bortles my guess you would take any of them now or in a draft having your choice. right ?
    Manziel right now certainly has trouble seeing over the line of scrimmage -- watched the replay of the game on the NFL Network a few days ago and saw that on a couple of plays he was straining to see but couldn't. That likely was on some of of those missed receiver plays. But there are other short QBs in the league like Brees and Wilson who figure it out. Manziel needs more time to do that.

    As for the other young QBs vs. Manziel, I agree, that I would have drafted all of these other guys except for Bortles, maybe, before Manziel. But does that mean Manziel is a washout? Much to early to say that and he could turn out to be good. But sending out these QBs with what has turned out to be one of the worst offensive lines in the NFL (even though it shouldn't be, by a long shot), reminds me of the Tim Couch era.

    I'll say it again: give me just an average offensive line, average running backs, average receivers, and I'd like to see what Manziel could do with that cast around him. But right now he has one of the five-seven worst groups of backs, receivers and offensive linemen, performance wise, in the NFL. Right now he's like a guy given a rifle to go and do battle with a couple of tanks! And I'm sorry, that's not fair! Shame on you Ray Farmer!
    Last edited by AttackOffense; 11-13-2015 at 01:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PlaygroundLegend View Post
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    Exactly

    For some reason people think Pettine knows what he is talking about over everyone and anyone else..

    Pettine could tell everyone that Connor Shaw is a Franchise QB and everyone would lap it up.

    I have no idea why Pettine has such a strong following.
    And that's what we see happen with fans for every new regime coming in. But every front office has been a total stinkaroo!

    Like I say, people on this board would do a far better job as GM than Farmer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PlaygroundLegend View Post
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    Exactly

    For some reason people think Pettine knows what he is talking about over everyone and anyone else..

    Pettine could tell everyone that Connor Shaw is a Franchise QB and everyone would lap it up.

    I have no idea why Pettine has such a strong following.
    Actually, the answer to that is easy enough. Pettine has the power to make the decision. The argument goes that if he has the power to make the decision, there must be a reason. And, of course, there is.

    When I truthfully mentioned that there was near unanimous agreement that Manziel should start the rest of the season a couple of days ago, that agreement was not based on everybody thinking Manziel might succeed. The majority apparently believe that he would prove to be a failure. It is just that they were willing to let him prove it on the field if they have no other choice.

    But they really don't want to be bothered with all that anyway and if Manziel could somehow just disappear, it would be much more convenient for them. Thus, they are quite content for it to be something that the coaches have seen in practice.

    It is only a few of us oddballs who actually believe that Manziel has a chance to be what we hope he might be if given a chance. And it is only us oddballs that really are in favor of Manziel starting the rest of the season, disclaimers to the contrary. In other words, in the opinion of the many, there is an unquestionable consensus that Manziel is a piece of shit.
    Last edited by Brownsfan; 11-13-2015 at 02:17 PM.
    "A pessimist is one who says: 'Things can't get worse.' And an optimist is one who says, 'Yes they can.'" Alan Dershowitz

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    God I love how Clifford fancies himself a savant who can delve into and speak for the minds of others.

    I think the case for most of us who post here has been stated repeatedly, and succinctly. So take your "majority" garbage and put it where it belongs.

    Most of us want Johnny to start. All Browns fans would be ecstatic if he panned out. End of story.
    I can't stand it when a player whines to me or his teammates or his wife or the writers or anyone else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangelo930 View Post
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    For the record -- I still want to see Manziel start and think he should start the rest of the season. I am only speculating on what I have seen transpire over the last several weeks that I don't think we're going to see anywhere near as much Manziel as we want to/should see. I think Johnny will be off the team by opening day of next season. Not saying I WANT that to happen in any way, I just think it WILL happen.
    I fully agree with every word you said--assuming that Pettine really does have the upper hand. And the longer this situation continues, the more likely this seems.

    PGL says Haslam and Farmer are thick, but if that is the case, what are they waiting on. I see no purpose in waiting until the end of the season to fire Pettine. Perhaps they are waiting on the bye for minimum disruption. Possible?
    "A pessimist is one who says: 'Things can't get worse.' And an optimist is one who says, 'Yes they can.'" Alan Dershowitz

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldDawgCliff View Post
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    PGL says Haslam and Farmer are thick, but if that is the case, what are they waiting on. I see no purpose in waiting until the end of the season to fire Pettine. Perhaps they are waiting on the bye for minimum disruption. Possible?
    I have a purpose for waiting: to try and protect what little credibility this ownership/executive group has remaining after already having canned two coaches in its first 3 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBestPlayersPlay View Post
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    God I love how Clifford fancies himself a savant who can delve into and speak for the minds of others.

    I think the case for most of us who post here has been stated repeatedly, and succinctly. So take your "majority" garbage and put it where it belongs.

    Most of us want Johnny to start. All Browns fans would be ecstatic if he panned out. End of story.
    Spot on. We're just not part of the "in" crowd because we won't join in on the bashing of everything other than Manziel. (Coaches, receivers, Joe Thomas, etc.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBestPlayersPlay View Post
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    God I love how Clifford fancies himself a savant who can delve into and speak for the minds of others.

    I think the case for most of us who post here has been stated repeatedly, and succinctly. So take your "majority" garbage and put it where it belongs.

    Most of us want Johnny to start. All Browns fans would be ecstatic if he panned out. End of story.
    It really isn't difficult to read between the lines sometimes. When people are all too ready to jump on the bandwagon and trash the kid at every opportunity, their subsequent pleas of support for the kid are not all that convincing.
    "A pessimist is one who says: 'Things can't get worse.' And an optimist is one who says, 'Yes they can.'" Alan Dershowitz

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    Big Ben vs. the Bengals one week before Manziel

    28-45 262 yards 5.8 avg. 1 td 3 int 3 sacks 23.3 QBR 57.8 passer rating

    Johnny
    15/33 168 5.1 1 0 3-24 71.8 71.3

    Manziel far superior QBR and passer rating.

    Please break down the game film on Ben. How many years has he been in the league?

    Manziel played much better against the Bengals than Ben.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    Spot on. We're just not part of the "in" crowd because we won't join in on the bashing of everything other than Manziel. (Coaches, receivers, Joe Thomas, etc.)
    My only response to that is that I don't try to have it both way. The part that blows me away is how people can be so ready to bash the kid and then turn around and say they support him.
    "A pessimist is one who says: 'Things can't get worse.' And an optimist is one who says, 'Yes they can.'" Alan Dershowitz

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    Who are all these people "trashing" the kid? All that article is/was is break down of certain plays on all 22 game film, which shows there is certainly question at this stage JMs understanding of playing within the structure of an offense, and the NFL game. If read with an open mind, not clouded with ones own personal opinion (be it pro or con JM), which if we are all honest, as fans we are really not well informed as far as what really happen, that breakdowns simply gives one an idea of why a HC, OC, former coach, or players are not quite so high on Manziel

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    I have a purpose for waiting: to try and protect what little credibility this ownership/executive group has remaining after already having canned two coaches in its first 3 years.
    Okay, that does make some sense. Suppose Haslam really does want to fire Farmer or Pettine or both right now (and I don't know that to be the case, but suppose it is), I can see him being more afraid of bad PR than losing.

    Must be fun. A guy buys an NFL team expecting to have some fun and everything turns to shit. The other two coaches were fired by Banner, of course, but it hardly matters. Haslam is still limited with what he can do, PR wise, because of the decisions that were made by the guy who was forced on him by the league.

    Let's all shed a tear.
    "A pessimist is one who says: 'Things can't get worse.' And an optimist is one who says, 'Yes they can.'" Alan Dershowitz

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    Quote Originally Posted by Masters View Post
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    Who are all these people "trashing" the kid? All that article is/was is break down of certain plays on all 22 game film, which shows there is certainly question at this stage JMs understanding of playing within the structure of an offense, and the NFL game. If read with an open mind, not clouded with ones own personal opinion (be it pro or con JM), which if we are all honest, as fans we are really not well informed as far as what really happen, that breakdowns simply gives one an idea of why a HC, OC, former coach, or players are not quite so high on Manziel
    Did Manziel perform better against the Bengals than Ben did a week earlier?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Masters View Post
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    Who are all these people "trashing" the kid? All that article is/was is break down of certain plays on all 22 game film, which shows there is certainly question at this stage JMs understanding of playing within the structure of an offense, and the NFL game. If read with an open mind, not clouded with ones own personal opinion (be it pro or con JM), which if we are all honest, as fans we are really not well informed as far as what really happen, that breakdowns simply gives one an idea of why a HC, OC, former coach, or players are not quite so high on Manziel
    Some like him and some don't. It is as simple as that.

    Did I mention that it is as simple as that?
    "A pessimist is one who says: 'Things can't get worse.' And an optimist is one who says, 'Yes they can.'" Alan Dershowitz

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    Quote Originally Posted by BruceWayne View Post
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    Did Manziel perform better against the Bengals than Ben did a week earlier?
    I have not seen a game film breakdown of Ben's game against Cincy to really say so. Of course one has really nothing to do with the other. Nor would that even be a fair comparison for JM considering where each guy is today in their respective careers and developments, which are very different path. Not to mention you are talking completely different teams playing each other, which means game plans, all personal, etc. are going to be different. I would venture a guess that Ben wasn't missing simple/basic reads and concepts.

    I think someone in this thread or the mega mentioned Shaw in some way as if to knock Pettine. I would venture a guess that some of these basic concepts are things Shaw was not missing during his start last year.

    The thing is, most of these are concepts and reads those who have played in a structured offense already understand. I am not even being factious when I make mention that those things in the breakdown are literally taught in the Madden video games. They have in those games actual training which walk you through those route combinations and reads. None of it means that at some point Manziel could not succeed, only that where he might be as far as understanding today, in part because his whole life he played outside of structured offense, is a lot further off. That then may explain the reluctance to play him in place of McCown, as being that far behind the curve today can be detrimental to the other 10 guys playing on O.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    Spot on. We're just not part of the "in" crowd because we won't join in on the bashing of everything other than Manziel. (Coaches, receivers, Joe Thomas, etc.)

    Hey knucklefuque tell em who got it right about that bum fuque fatass Joe Thomas from day one..... Or keep telling more bullshit lies your choice.... .....

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldDawgCliff View Post
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    Some like him and some don't. It is as simple as that.

    Did I mention that it is as simple as that?
    For what I was responding to, no you did not. You stated "It really isn't difficult to read between the lines sometimes. When people are all too ready to jump on the bandwagon and trash the kid at every opportunity, their subsequent pleas of support for the kid are not all that convincing". I was simply asking who are all these people "trashing" the kid which you are referring to

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldDawgCliff View Post
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    Some like him and some don't. It is as simple as that.

    Did I mention that it is as simple as that?
    For what I was responding to, no you did not. You stated "It really isn't difficult to read between the lines sometimes. When people are all too ready to jump on the bandwagon and trash the kid at every opportunity, their subsequent pleas of support for the kid are not all that convincing". I was simply asking who are all these people "trashing" the kid which you are referring to

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    Quote Originally Posted by Masters View Post
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    For what I was responding to, no you did not. You stated "It really isn't difficult to read between the lines sometimes. When people are all too ready to jump on the bandwagon and trash the kid at every opportunity, their subsequent pleas of support for the kid are not all that convincing". I was simply asking who are all these people "trashing" the kid which you are referring to
    If you think I am going to detail all the instances of Manziel bashing on this board for both on and off the field shit over the last couple of years, you are crazy. I would be here all day. And who would care? Suffice it to say that some people like him and some don't. And it appears that some of those that don't like him love to trash him.
    "A pessimist is one who says: 'Things can't get worse.' And an optimist is one who says, 'Yes they can.'" Alan Dershowitz

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    I'll bite on the Ben thing. Ben played worse since the only thing I have to go on is his stats.

    Now, what the hell does that have to do with a critique of Manziel's play re: the film breakdown offered in that article.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    Spot on. We're just not part of the "in" crowd because we won't join in on the bashing of everything other than Manziel. (Coaches, receivers, Joe Thomas, etc.)
    This JM debate is crazy. I refuse to participate. I stated before, JM should start aginst the Steelers because Josh hasn't practiced enough and is still not close to 100% from the reports I've read. I think drafting JM was a mistake. Who's idea was it? Haslam, Farmer, Pettine, all, or a combination of two?
    What the point in comparing JM stats against Cincy vs big Ben, they both lost. That's the bottom line!

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