View Poll Results: Did Johnny Manziel do enough today to earn his starting spot NEXT YEAR and for us NOT to draft a QB

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Thread: Johnny Manziel 33/45 73% comp 372 yds passing 17 yds rushing 1 PATD 1 INT - The beginning of the future?

  1. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by OconRecon View Post
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    For the umpteenth time...

    Yes, McCown has had games where he puts up great numbers, but had no support around.

    Yes, Manziel had the same type of thing happen yesterday.

    But McCown isn't the future in any way shape or form! He's not!! That's it!!! The end!!!!

    We know McCown's ceiling and father time is knocking at his door. He was only the bridge starter to either Manziel or a soon upcoming draft choice.

    The line "our QB is doing well, we just need to get better skill players around him, have a running game, and fix the D" applies to Manziel, but does not apply to McCown. That's what happens when one QB is at the end of a career and one isn't. The big picture only applies to the younger QB when the here-and-now season is lost.

    McCown in any discussion only applies to today. Today, we aren't winning. Therefore the big picture takes over.

    Manziel for these last 6 games needs to happen. Love him or hate him.

    Pro-Manziel = figure out the QBOTF. It's the same thing at this juncture.

    It's not Manziel love, Manzeilots, Snickers lovers, fanboi's or whatever.

    It's figure out the QBOFT. Even if you feel there's only a 10% chance Manziel can do it.

    Rutigliano just on the Fan this morning. In general, he does not like Manziel. A couple of weeks ago he wanted him cut. But he says start him. Because he gets that you have to figure it out in the last 6 games.

    Those here who don't get this concept need to get it through their thick heads.


    Manziel is not the ideal QB, but he can win IF you provide him with a decent supporting cast. It'll be up to the new GM and head coach to do that.

  2. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by DawgsDefense View Post
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    No i said he had a great game.....

    BUT HE THREW A PICK TO WOODSON....GAME AFTER MANZIEL OUTSHINED MARIOTA WITH FIRST START AND TWO DEEP BOMBS. ONE TO SEAL IT.....

    Is what I said.

    Gordon back is huge.
    Duke needs moved to slot when crowell comes in if he isnt exhausted. We need to work that horse.
    Ifo ekepre needs to get starting reps at corner and then safety.

    Gilbert should get starting reps at corner immedietely. See if he has flashes. Safety if not.... And see... And he can punt and kick return.

    Pierre desir needs cut or bademosi

    Gaines campbell poyer kwuan gipson all need playingtime with Gilbert. Whitner done. Haden done.
    No reason to play either??? I may cut whitner if wont still hurt bad next year. We got talent and He is old slow and a "cleveland vet" . This needs to be Johnny....and duke....and flashs team. Bitonio...shelton...gipson if resigned and kwuan barnidge guys.

    Kruger if he cant produce next year in different system and coach gone. Desmond bryant needs contract restructured or gone. Armonty bryant needs to produce.....and no bonehead plays like today or gone.
    Meder needs to start or get alot of rotation reps...cooper too.
    Kruger needs play de i think. He can play it.... Dansby too.

    Mingo play ilb and blitz move around alot and cover man to man or zone. He can be a great lb if he was used that way ilb slash olb. He just too small to set an edge so safeties need to come down and fill fast,BUT OUR SAFETIES PLAY 10 plus yards need. 15 on 3rd AND LONG#! WHY HAVE WHITNER A RUN STOPPING SAFETY IF YOU FUCKIN PLAY HIM 14 yards deep? BLITZ KWUAN ON A DELAY....NEVER GETS THERE JUST LEAVES SLOT OPEN TO CUT AND MAKE SAFETY MISS WHO GOT THERE LATE AND BE GONE.

    Jim oneil and no pass rush or allpro linebackers. Secondary is not playing well since cant hold or pass interfere. Our offense leads league in 3and outs
    Kruger and Bryant do need to be replaced with better players. Part of the problem is the DEs.

    Mingo is a total waste -- a zero.

    Duke Johnson is a good runner of the ball, too, but the OL is so bad we haven't seen what he can do!

  3. #51
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    http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/po...russell-wilson

    Linebacker Lawrence Timmons says Manziel has “all the intangibles to being a great quarterback one day.”

  4. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brownsfan1956 View Post
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    Just to bring a touch of reality to this pile....when Josh had a huge game a couple of weeks back didnt all the snickerites say, "and we lost" "His numbers dont matter he played well enough for us to lose" Doesnt that apply to the precious snickers as well snickerites?
    QB is not the biggest problem with the offense, not by a longshot. When you can't run the ball and your receivers are mediocre to horrible, Tom Brady would have difficulty. Even last night, Brady got lucky and won but he had a lot of problems without the great Edelman in the lineup. Even Brady needs good receivers.

  5. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by DawgsDefense View Post
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    MANZIEL IS THE TRUTH

    MANZIEL IS THE TRUTH

    MTT BABY!!! Benji and Hawkinz still droppin touchdowns. Crowell dropped pass. No running game.

    Duke johnson bibbs gilbert kwuan w cooper orchard poyer campbell gaines gabriel duke johnson and manziel need to be focal point of offense. Manziel needs to be able to run without being chastized. It makes him him...and dynamic. He will burn defenses. The hurryup needs implimented this bye week.

    Bye week is perfect to completely make the switch to Manziel and work on linemen blocking for him moving around. Wr coming back to johnny or breaking deep.

    Manziel is the future
    Duke johnson is future
    Benji is legit threat but not a #1


    This offense with another real wr and big back plusjosh gordon will be able to avg 35. Manziel should avg 300 and 50 yards rushing.

    Evanz had 125today.....manziel needs his #1. Josh gordon will have 1500 and 8td
    Benjamin can be a #2, but he is not a #1. Need to add two big quality receivers.

    has anyone noticed that no team picked up Terrell Pryor? I know what that tells me!

  6. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackOffense View Post
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    Love how you ignore the fact that Manziel's supporting cast is horrible, too!
    While it's true that his supporting cast is bad, you must admit the main reason we are losing is because of our horrible defense.

  7. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Eden View Post
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    While it's true that his supporting cast is bad, you must admit the main reason we are losing is because of our horrible defense.
    That's a big part of the reason, but so are the problems on offense.

  8. #56
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    I'm sure the great quarterbacking guru Mary Kay Cabot will tell us he's still not ready.
    Inexplicable 2016 Barking Hard Pick 'Em Champion

    "Thus we say, 'He ne'er contends, And therein is his might.'" - Lao Tzu, passage 68 of the Tao Te Ching, foretelling of the Cleveland Browns

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  9. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToastedPagel View Post
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    I'm sure the great quarterbacking guru Mary Kay Cabot will tell us he's still not ready.
    LOL! Browns discussions about offense on this board lack balance -- need more focus on the offensive line, the running backs, problems in the red zone, and the midget receivers.

  10. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoatShoes View Post
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    And the fact there wasn't a scuffle after that face mask tells us all we need to know about the culture within the team.

    I don't care if I don't like you, your fcking my sister, you ran over my dog... If youre wearing the same colors with me in battle... We are brothers.
    Wow. Is he that weak that he needs a knight in shining armor? Its football bro. QB's take massive, nasty hits all day every Sunday and their OL doesn't come in and make it worse by tacking on a PF to defend their woman.

    The extremes you'll go to find fault with everyone and everything NOT Manziel is a joke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackOffense View Post
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    QB is not the biggest problem with the offense, not by a longshot. When you can't run the ball and your receivers are mediocre to horrible, Tom Brady would have difficulty. Even last night, Brady got lucky and won but he had a lot of problems without the great Edelman in the lineup. Even Brady needs good receivers.
    As usual you miss the point. '56, while being unapologetically anti-Manziel, was simply pointing out what he thought to be a double standard on the QB comparison. I happen to relate more closely to Ocon's take on the difference.

    Point is this has nothing to do with a debate about the supporting cast. Nothing at all. The supporting cast has been the definition of a 'constant' in the comparison of McCown and Manziel. I would expect all three of my school age children to readily see this and would admonish them as a good parent if they'd made a completely unrelated counter. I won't dare to try and "parent" you but perhaps you can connect the dots none the less.

    Yours truly,

    Dad

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    Wow. Is he that weak that he needs a knight in shining armor? Its football bro. QB's take massive, nasty hits all day every Sunday and their OL doesn't come in and make it worse by tacking on a PF to defend their woman.

    The extremes you'll go to find fault with everyone and everything NOT Manziel is a joke.
    Every day you come on this board and start bashing people. Stop it!

  13. #61
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    I don't think very many of us DON'T think the bye and the rest of the season is first and foremost about Manziel, but consider:

    - Aside from Manziel, the Browns rushed for -12 yards in 11 carries. That's scary.
    - Irving was a total turnstile, although he did play the one position he didn't practice all preseason.
    - Benjamin flat out dropped a touchdown pass.
    - Manziel made an amazing "Johnny Football" run that looked like a TD but put us at the 1/2 yard line. Then a penalty (we had 15) pushed us back, forced a sack, and ultimately a meaningless INT. Manziel knew he had to let it rip on 4th down and give his team a chance.
    - Manziel completed 6 passes for at least 65 yards to 4 different receivers. He spread the ball around.
    - 33 of 45 for 372 under these circumstances isn't good... it's great. Manziel played a great game.
    - He's 22. He's younger today than Derek Carr was as a rookie.
    - Right now, at that tender age, he has a PR of 89 with 5/2. That makes him a very exciting prospect at QB considering, again, that he's 22. He's where you'd like your 1st round pick to be, development wise.

    Most importantly, keep in mind that he basically began training camp on the Tuesday before the Bengals game with one walk through before starting that Thursday night game. Yet he came out of that half with a PR over 100. He had a PR yesterday of 96.

    In this league, you get that kind of QB play and build around it, you'll win a lot of games. The fact that Manziel is (again) 22, the age of the average rookie, is worthy of excitement. He looks like he's figuring out how to play quarterback in the NFL.

    Now imagine his next start after getting all the starter reps over the bye. Now imagine him getting all the starter reps for the rest of the season. Now imagine him being named the starter in January and getting all the reps through the entire Spring and Summer. Now imagine Josh Gordon (who loves Manziel) returning and the Browns drafting a big body WR at the top of round 2 (I think they'll go with a dominant defender in the top 10, hopefully Bosa).

    Imagine Gordon, a WR drafted around #37, a vastly improved Benjamin, and Hartline as your top 4 WRs. Hawkins as your designated slot guy if he can recover from multiple concussions. Draft or sign another RB to go with Duke Johnson. Tweak the offense around Manziel's unique skill set instead of tossing him in there. Have a plan.

    Use your free agent dollars to add not just Bosa but another pass rusher to the defense.

    The future COULD be bright... if the Browns can avoid stepping on their dick, as usual.

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    When you're talking about the future, you have to mention two other guys: Travis Benjamin and Gary Barnidge.

    Barnidge has 48 catches for 667 yards and 7 TDs. He's the 2nd best TE in football this year by almost any measure (to Gronk). Jordan Cameron is nowhere close.

    It's not REALLY like he came out of nowhere. Prior to this season he had 32 straight passes his way without a drop. People knew he could catch. Now they know he can be a weapon. The issue? He's 30. No, that's not ancient. He's 100% healthy and can be expected to start at TE for the Browns for at least a few more years, something I'm sure Manziel would love. Barnidge is likely to be a Pro Bowler this year and has a solid chance to hit 1,000 yards, rare for TEs not named Gronk.

    Benjamin has 48 catches for 736 yards. At this pace, with the looks he'll get, he's like to end up with about 75 catches for over 1,200 yards, or in that vicinity. He's one of the fastest players in the entire league. Along with Barnidge, Hartline, and Duke Johnson, I expect him to be part of next year's team. Hawkins concussion problems make him iffy. Gabriel has all but disappeared.

    I think the Browns will be aggressive adding playmakers at WR and RB. Gordon will be given every chance to prove he can be that true #1 this team lacks. I can't imagine the Browns getting past the early 2nd round without drafting a WR. Through f/a or early round 3, the Browns need to bring in another RB. They need to figure out what went wrong with this "elite" OL because I sure as hell don't.

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    Shep's vision of a 23 year old Manziel surrounded by Gordon, Duke, quality WR/TE draft pick(s), and an offensive line led by an actual offensive line coach does excite me. Not to mention a defense that can and should add significant talent along with a change in leadership. Yes, it's never fun to always exist within the Land of Next Year but the sun seems a bit brighter today than it did just a week or two ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoatShoes View Post
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    And the fact there wasn't a scuffle after that face mask tells us all we need to know about the culture within the team.

    I don't care if I don't like you, your fcking my sister, you ran over my dog... If youre wearing the same colors with me in battle... We are brothers.
    I completely agree with this. Mike Pettine told us when he was hired two years ago that "this team is going to be built on toughness". We heard that soundclip played a thousand times. The Cleveland Browns right now are ANYTHING but a tough team. They are soft. They are pushovers. They are laughing and joking around with their opponents after they get embarrassed week in and week out. These guys need someone to rip them a new asshole and teach them how to be men on and off the football field. It is embarrassing to me as a fan that these guys don't seem to have each other's backs and that they let themselves get pushed around every week. It's sad that I feel like we, as fans, are more pissed off than the actual players who are living this nightmare every week.

  17. #65
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    For the first time, I wouldn't hate adding two Buckeyes at 1/2 (Bosa and Michael Thomas), although I don't know that we can get high enough to draft Bosa. We'd have to lose out.

    At 6'3" and 210, Thomas make sense in early round 2. Adding him and Josh Gordon to Travis Benjamin and Gary Barnidge would make for a terrific group of targets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    Sheesh.

    No one ever seems to read the responses that those apparent "hatah" posts are stemming from. Posts like, "Manziel is elite" and "Manziel should have been starting from the beginning" and "Manziel has arrived".

    Most of the cautionary posts regarding Manziel are simply voices of reason asking that we see some more before declaring him the answer. There's just no winning on this topic, however, because if you aren't over the top supporting of Manziel which requires panning everyone else (his OL, his receivers, his RB's, his coaches) you are considered negative.

    I thought he looked excellent today. I'm excited about it. Maybe the staff's development plan is working. (Naw Grey, there you go again. Manziel did well today in SPITE of the organization which is continuing to do everything possible to make him fail!)

    I'm also more fixated on my concern about the rest of this team as I have been most of the season. The QB room has been the least of my worries; again all year.
    Doesn't really sound like most anyone wants to sniff at admitting anything close to that. I'm not saying I'm optimistic, about the future, but it could totally be a plan working out, seeing Manziel trend up is definitely good. We'll see if he can keep that up.
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  19. #67
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    I do love when Shep goes all optimist. Gets me excited. Bravo Shep!

    Its very very hard to turn a blind-eye to the defense right now, but....

    I do want to see it a bit more healthy, especially on the back end. Haden has me worried as when he has been healthy he's looked like shit. However, its hard to imagine a guy like Haden all of a sudden forgetting how to play. Whitner still has enough left in the tank to be valuable for our last 6 games. If we get these two mended coming out of the buy, I have to think the defense is better. Seems almost like a stupid thing to even say.

    I really wish Flip and Co will make some type of schematic change to help the running game. I know we've debated the zone blocking thing over and over, but I'm struggling to understand why we aren't doing more of it. It is just crystal clear that what we ARE doing isn't working.

    Forgetting wins/losses, if Manziel can continue to show NFL command in the key areas of ball security (he's been excellent there recently), pre-snap reads, taking what he's given, and making plays from the pocket I'll be ecstatic. The play extending, using his feet stuff is clearly innate and clearly translates. Its the former areas where I believe we need to focus in terms of his development. Let's also hope he stays grounded should his growth continue and the inevitable attention it will draw.

    This town is desperate for a football messiah and if Manziel starts trending that way the attention and adulation he'll see will dwarf what he had at A&M. Will he be able to stay grounded and resist going to the Grammy's to sit with Drake, et al? (Or whatever example of off field distraction/ego stuff you wish to offer.) His rude introduction to the NFL game may very well serve as a constant reminder of maintaining the requisite level of humility to keep him on the edge of the "right side".

    I'm a rah rah guy generally (as irritating as that is to some ). A strong finish to the season with Manziel playing "growth" football and the defense/running game trending up would be really great.

  20. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    As usual you miss the point. '56, while being unapologetically anti-Manziel, was simply pointing out what he thought to be a double standard on the QB comparison. I happen to relate more closely to Ocon's take on the difference.

    Point is this has nothing to do with a debate about the supporting cast. Nothing at all. The supporting cast has been the definition of a 'constant' in the comparison of McCown and Manziel. I would expect all three of my school age children to readily see this and would admonish them as a good parent if they'd made a completely unrelated counter. I won't dare to try and "parent" you but perhaps you can connect the dots none the less.

    Yours truly,

    Dad
    Sorry, Grey, but I think you are being silly about "points" that bear no relevance to building a winner. So what if 56 had a "point"? At most, it was an observation without long term significance. AO's point was valid and meaningful.
    "A pessimist is one who says: 'Things can't get worse.' And an optimist is one who says, 'Yes they can.'" Alan Dershowitz

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shep View Post
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    homas make sense in early round 2. Adding him and Josh Gordon to Travis Benjamin and Gary Barnidge would make for a terrific group of targets.
    Thomas
    Gordon (yeah, yeah, someone sing the "we can't count on him" song and move on)
    Hartline
    Benjamin
    Barnidge

    I could like that.

    So, what are we going to do about the running game?
    2017 Draft: Garrett, Peppers, Njoku, Kizer, Ogunjobi, Collins (via trade of 103), Wilson, Johnson, Brantley, Gonzalez, Dayes
    2018 EXTRA Draft picks: a 1st (Texans), two in 2nd (Eagles & Texans), a 4th (Panthers/A.Lee), a 5th (Chiefs/Cam) - 12 total
    2019 EXTRA picks: 7th rnd (w/ Coates)
    Philly trade result: C. Coleman, Peppers, Kizer, Kessler, R. Louis, S. Coleman, Drango, Kindred, Payton, 2018 1st rndr (Texans) & 2018 2nd rndr (Eagles)

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldDawgCliff View Post
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    Sorry, Grey, but I think you are being silly about "points" that bear no relevance to building a winner. So what if 56 had a "point"? At most, it was an observation without long term significance. AO's point was valid and meaningful.
    Of course I'm being silly in this post Cliff. I was responding to AO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OconRecon View Post
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    So, what are we going to do about the running game?
    Hell of a question. My feeling on the matter? Start with the blocking scheme first and then go from there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    I do love when Shep goes all optimist. Gets me excited. Bravo Shep!

    Its very very hard to turn a blind-eye to the defense right now, but....

    I do want to see it a bit more healthy, especially on the back end. Haden has me worried as when he has been healthy he's looked like shit. However, its hard to imagine a guy like Haden all of a sudden forgetting how to play. Whitner still has enough left in the tank to be valuable for our last 6 games. If we get these two mended coming out of the buy, I have to think the defense is better. Seems almost like a stupid thing to even say.

    I really wish Flip and Co will make some type of schematic change to help the running game. I know we've debated the zone blocking thing over and over, but I'm struggling to understand why we aren't doing more of it. It is just crystal clear that what we ARE doing isn't working.

    Forgetting wins/losses, if Manziel can continue to show NFL command in the key areas of ball security (he's been excellent there recently), pre-snap reads, taking what he's given, and making plays from the pocket I'll be ecstatic. The play extending, using his feet stuff is clearly innate and clearly translates. Its the former areas where I believe we need to focus in terms of his development. Let's also hope he stays grounded should his growth continue and the inevitable attention it will draw.

    This town is desperate for a football messiah and if Manziel starts trending that way the attention and adulation he'll see will dwarf what he had at A&M. Will he be able to stay grounded and resist going to the Grammy's to sit with Drake, et al? (Or whatever example of off field distraction/ego stuff you wish to offer.) His rude introduction to the NFL game may very well serve as a constant reminder of maintaining the requisite level of humility to keep him on the edge of the "right side".

    I'm a rah rah guy generally (as irritating as that is to some ). A strong finish to the season with Manziel playing "growth" football and the defense/running game trending up would be really great.
    I think the defense may be a coach away from being decent. I wouldn't be opposed to finding out.
    "A pessimist is one who says: 'Things can't get worse.' And an optimist is one who says, 'Yes they can.'" Alan Dershowitz

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