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  1. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    I think you're being hyperbolic, but you can correct me if that's a false statement.

    Browns current rankings:

    26th in yards per game
    12th in passing yards per game
    31st in rushing yards per game
    28th in points scored per game

    Lots of really bad numbers in there for sure, but the stats don't reflect the assertion of the 32nd ranked OL, RB, and Receiver supporting cast of 10.

    There's also the impact of a defense that can't stop letting teams score 30+ points on us. Its hard on any offense to play from behind forcing the one-dimensional thing.

    Point is that while I don't see anyone debating the need for better skill position talent, guys like Benjamin and Barnidge have been far from cellar dwellers at their positions. This isn't the worst supporting cast across the board, but to your point it does need improvement.
    Browns Stats:

    Sacks given up -- Worst in the NFL
    QB Hits -- Worst in the NFL

    Football outsiders:

    Browns run blocking -- 31st worst
    Browns pass blocking -- 23rd worst

    And the team that's about the worst in pro football in running the ball hardly ever tries running the ball behind its Hall of Fame tackle, Joe Thomas. It's clear the Browns consider RT Mitchell Schwartz a much better run blocker!

    As for the receiving corps, Benjamin a nice #2 or #2 receiver, the rest of the receivers are garbage; Barnidge plays TE, not WR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    I think you're being hyperbolic, but you can correct me if that's a false statement.

    Browns current rankings:

    26th in yards per game
    12th in passing yards per game
    31st in rushing yards per game
    28th in points scored per game

    Lots of really bad numbers in there for sure, but the stats don't reflect the assertion of the 32nd ranked OL, RB, and Receiver supporting cast of 10.

    There's also the impact of a defense that can't stop letting teams score 30+ points on us. Its hard on any offense to play from behind forcing the one-dimensional thing.

    Point is that while I don't see anyone debating the need for better skill position talent, guys like Benjamin and Barnidge have been far from cellar dwellers at their positions. This isn't the worst supporting cast across the board, but to your point it does need improvement.
    Browns Stats:

    Sacks given up -- Worst in the NFL
    QB Hits -- Worst in the NFL

    Football outsiders:

    Browns run blocking -- 31st worst
    Browns pass blocking -- 23rd worst

    And the team that's about the worst in pro football in running the ball hardly ever tries running the ball behind its Hall of Fame tackle, Joe Thomas. It's clear the Browns consider RT Mitchell Schwartz a much better run blocker!

    As for the receiving corps, Benjamin a nice #2 or #3 receiver, the rest of the receivers are garbage; Barnidge plays TE, not WR.

    Browns have averaged 13 points a game the last 5 games, among the worst in the NFL. Compare that with the Minnesota Vikings, who have averaged 24 points a game over that span and lead the NFC Central.
    Last edited by AttackOffense; 11-19-2015 at 12:35 PM.

  2. #98
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    From a recent article on the Seahawks challenges:
    According to ESPN Stats & Information, Marshawn Lynch is averaging 1.60 yards before contact, which ranks 47th out of 50 players. Russell Wilson has been sacked on 9.8 percent of his dropbacks and pressured on 40.9 percent -- both league highs.
    That's a team with a defense that ranks second in yards allowed per game and seventh in points surrendered.

    Again, its hyperbole that we are the WORST in the NFL in the three areas you listed. There's a number of franchises showing very anemic offensive results. Its not just our Brownies. That was my only point. I agree with you on the non-hyperbolic point you are trying to make: our OL, running game, and receivers (generally includes the TE position, but whatever) are not performing at a high level. There ain't no denying that!

  3. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    From a recent article on the Seahawks challenges:


    That's a team with a defense that ranks second in yards allowed per game and seventh in points surrendered.

    Again, its hyperbole that we are the WORST in the NFL in the three areas you listed. There's a number of franchises showing very anemic offensive results. Its not just our Brownies. That was my only point. I agree with you on the non-hyperbolic point you are trying to make: our OL, running game, and receivers (generally includes the TE position, but whatever) are not performing at a high level. There ain't no denying that!
    Browns lead the NFL in both sacks and QB hits given up. That's a fact. And it's a disaster.

    Meanwhile, let's look at the Browns scoring offense vs. other AFC teams the past five games:

    Steelers -- 138
    Ravens -- 114
    Bengals -- 113
    Browns -- 67

    And the problem is not the QBs, it's nearly everything else!

    In red zone TD scoring, the Browns rank 29th in the NFL at 40%, while leaders NY Jets, Pats and Bengals are at 71% and 67%, 67% respectively.
    Last edited by AttackOffense; 11-19-2015 at 12:53 PM.

  4. #100
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    We're good AO. I'm not disagreeing with the negative performance of our offense. I was just making the point that describing our OL, RB, and receiver groups as all being "worst" in the NFL isn't very accurate. Posterity and all that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    We're good AO. I'm not disagreeing with the negative performance of our offense. I was just making the point that describing our OL, RB, and receiver groups as all being "worst" in the NFL isn't very accurate. Posterity and all that.
    It also makes you wonder why the Browns OL is ranked #2 as recent as November 4 by PFF. Is it possible that there are no clear cut ways to rank on OL?

    MOST experts rank the OL based only on production by the QB/WR/RB groups. So...if you have a QB that sits in the pocket for 4-5 seconds and he gets sacked a ton...the OL is considered to be bad. If you have a RB that dances around before hitting the hole and is averaging only 2.1 y/c....then again, they blame the OL.

    I personally think the Browns OL is somewhere in the middle of the pack.

    I think on pass protection they are pretty damn good. When you take into consideration the number of pass attempts, they already climb to 26th. Then you add in the percentage of pass plays vs run....the Browns pass the 4th most often at nearly 65%...and that is a ton of pressure on the OL. Finally, you add in that they almost always playing from behind so teams KNOW they are passing.

    With that said...I have no idea what is going on with the run blocking. I really think messing with BOTH the zone blocking and the power blocking is screwing things up.
    Football is all about synergy. Replace a poor player with a great player and watch the surrounding players suddenly seem vastly improved. When you aren't covering for someone else, you can do YOUR JOB better.



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    I hear you Dawg. There's no doubt that McCown appears to hold the ball too much at times. Manziel is young and is naturally going to fall into that from time to time. The pass blocking hasn't look horrid to me but its also hasn't looked world class either. Thomas continues to just be amazing in pass protection. I think he'll likely go down as the best ever in that capacity. I mean just just dominates. Mack looked very shaky early on and Bitonio has struggled some. Schwartz is going to get beat from time to time. Greco's been solid.

    I think its likely more related to the factors you listed as to the high rates of negative stats AO has posted (factual for sure).

    The running game just "feels" like a scheme thing, RB thing, or "other" blockers thing (TE's/FB's). It just doesn't make sense that this group would be struggling so much considering their individual talent. On paper its a damn good line and should be good in both phases.

    Its something we have to figure out for sure including allowing for the possibility that we have personnel weaknesses.

    Stupefying. Truly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    We're good AO. I'm not disagreeing with the negative performance of our offense. I was just making the point that describing our OL, RB, and receiver groups as all being "worst" in the NFL isn't very accurate. Posterity and all that.
    They are among the worst. The stats and analysts' research and writing pretty much prove it out for the OL and RBs. The receiving corps might be more debatable.

    Let me add this:

    Football Outsiders compiles a variety of stats to rate the NFL receivers by total performance value. They first take receivers who have had 40 or more passes thrown their way so far this season. They had 64 receivers and divided into 4 quadrants. Three of the Browns principal receivers -- Hartline, Hawkins and Gabriel -- all rank in the bottom quartile, at 52nd, 60th and 63rd respectively. That's pretty poor. Benjamin came in 27th. Compare that with the Benagls who have Green at #4 and Jones at #29.

    Browns have one of the worst receiving corps in the NFL, which makes what Manziel and McCown have been able to accomplish simply astounding.
    Last edited by AttackOffense; 11-19-2015 at 02:31 PM.

  8. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by DawgFan View Post
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    It also makes you wonder why the Browns OL is ranked #2 as recent as November 4 by PFF. Is it possible that there are no clear cut ways to rank on OL?

    MOST experts rank the OL based only on production by the QB/WR/RB groups. So...if you have a QB that sits in the pocket for 4-5 seconds and he gets sacked a ton...the OL is considered to be bad. If you have a RB that dances around before hitting the hole and is averaging only 2.1 y/c....then again, they blame the OL.

    I personally think the Browns OL is somewhere in the middle of the pack.

    I think on pass protection they are pretty damn good. When you take into consideration the number of pass attempts, they already climb to 26th. Then you add in the percentage of pass plays vs run....the Browns pass the 4th most often at nearly 65%...and that is a ton of pressure on the OL. Finally, you add in that they almost always playing from behind so teams KNOW they are passing.

    With that said...I have no idea what is going on with the run blocking. I really think messing with BOTH the zone blocking and the power blocking is screwing things up.
    Wow. So the OL that has given up both the most QB hits and sacks in the NFL is good at pass protection? That's quite an amazing analysis!

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackOffense View Post
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    Wow. So the OL that has given up both the most QB hits and sacks in the NFL is good at pass protection? That's quite an amazing analysis!
    Come on AO. You complain about attack posts and then make an insulting comment like this that shows little depth or insight?

    Dawg is offering a structured, alternative interpretation of the negative. We all know, or should know, that lots of things go into QB hits/sacks statistics beyond the OL. You keep harping on the total number of hits when we've played one more game than most teams AND we pass more than most teams. In terms of hits/sacks per pass attempt we're not last. We're still not good, but we're not "worst".

    We're also one of the better passing offenses by most statistics. Yardage, TD/INT ratio, rating, etc.

    Maybe consider his analysis and offer refuting points beyond what you've already added. At least he offered an "analysis" as opposed to just repeating the same two statistics.

  10. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    Come on AO. You complain about attack posts and then make an insulting comment like this that shows little depth or insight?

    Dawg is offering a structured, alternative interpretation of the negative. We all know, or should know, that lots of things go into QB hits/sacks statistics beyond the OL. You keep harping on the total number of hits when we've played one more game than most teams AND we pass more than most teams. In terms of hits/sacks per pass attempt we're not last. We're still not good, but we're not "worst".

    We're also one of the better passing offenses by most statistics. Yardage, TD/INT ratio, rating, etc.

    Maybe consider his analysis and offer refuting points beyond what you've already added. At least he offered an "analysis" as opposed to just repeating the same two statistics.
    Browns averaging a paltry 13 points a game i their last 5 games and 29th in the league in red zone TD scoring.

    Browns with the worst or second worst running attack in the NFl.

    Browns giving up more sacks and QB hits than any other NFL team.

    That's pretty bad in the book of most people. Only on this board does a team averaging 13 points a game in the last five weeks, with its QBs under constant duress and fleeing for their life most of the time, and a team unable to run the ball at all, look good on offense to people!

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackOffense View Post
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    look good on offense to people!
    This is pointless on my part. I'll ask one last question: did Dawg or anyone say we look good on offense?

    You know how you like to name people with whom you disagree? You should call yourself AttackHyperbole.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    This is pointless on my part. I'll ask one last question: did Dawg or anyone say we look good on offense?

    You know how you like to name people with whom you disagree? You should call yourself AttackHyperbole.
    YOU, today, have tried to make the case the Browns look good on offense. Thus my counterarguments. I believe in facts. The facts are the Browns are 2-8 and right now would have the first pick in the NFL draft denoting they are the worst team in all of pro football.

    But even after week 5 you were giddy telling me how great everything and everybody was -- including Farmer and Pettine -- while I said the good stuff was overinfllated because they had played mostly bad teams and were just then hitting the tougher part of their schedule. I was right again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackOffense View Post
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    YOU, today, have tried to make the case the Browns look good on offense.
    I did? Where?

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    I think it's pretty hard to whitewash criticism of the offensive line. To quote Scott Steiner: the numbers don't lie. Yes, statistics can be the result of a multitude of factors which is why you should always be cautious of reading in to them too much but the long and short of it is simple. We allow a lot of pressure on the QB, and we are not very good at running the ball. I think it's just especially disappointing because the OL group was supposed to be one of the teams clear strengths and like our D (secondary in particular) it has been anything but...

    Just to comment, it's nice to see discussion outside the polarity of our QB situation in here. Not trying to suggest we're off topic but it's just nice to see lol
    BROWNS 2017: FUCK IT, DUDE... LET'S GO BOWLING

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    This is pointless on my part. I'll ask one last question: did Dawg or anyone say we look good on offense?

    You know how you like to name people with whom you disagree? You should call yourself AttackHyperbole.
    Perhaps 5 times in the past 24 hours you have mentioned the Browns are high in passing yards. Yes they are, but it's points on the scoreboard that determine who wins and losses games, and the Browns averaging 13 points for the last 5 games doesn't cut it.

    Reasons they don't score more? The Browns OL frequently gets overwhelmed and QBs tackled for losses near the red zone; the running game so poorly executed by the Ol and the backs is pathetic; and the receivers lack the speed, height and athletic ability to get open and make catches in the red zone.
    Last edited by AttackOffense; 11-20-2015 at 03:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enigmatic Evil View Post
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    it's nice to see discussion outside the polarity of our QB situation in here
    This is a big reason why I want the Browns to settle on a young QB and move forward. I despise the constant attention on the position being a question mark.

    Another thing to keep in mind is the Browns are up there in the rankings for penalties. The game vs Pittsburgh highlighted the defensive pass interference ones, but the offense is also having major problems and this directly affects both performance in the red zone and halting progress with offensive drives. Also, when they happen on 1st down, this immediately puts the offense in a hole.

    It's amazing that the Browns won the time of possession stat vs the Steelers and were so soundly beat on the scoreboard. Only multiple costly turnovers or other drive killers and big plays can explain that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by threesheets View Post
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    This is a big reason why I want the Browns to settle on a young QB and move forward. I despise the constant attention on the position being a question mark.

    Another thing to keep in mind is the Browns are up there in the rankings for penalties. The game vs Pittsburgh highlighted the defensive pass interference ones, but the offense is also having major problems and this directly affects both performance in the red zone and halting progress with offensive drives. Also, when they happen on 1st down, this immediately puts the offense in a hole.

    It's amazing that the Browns won the time of possession stat vs the Steelers and were so soundly beat on the scoreboard. Only multiple costly turnovers or other drive killers and big plays can explain that.
    The Browns are first or second in the NFL in penalties. Even one of the PD writers noted it's concerning that Pettine is so nonchalant about the penalties. We need to get this loser head coach out of Cleveland very quickly at the end of this season.

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    Perhaps it's another media witch hunt!
    BROWNS 2017: FUCK IT, DUDE... LET'S GO BOWLING

    "I just do not get worked up over games anymore. I realized some time ago there is no point in getting worked up over them. I have no control over the outcome, it has no impact on me personally, and I have little to no actual facts to work from on properly analyzing the results." - Masters

    "Don't try to make me feel dumb for my opinion. You can kiss my ass." - MalcolmBrown

    WOOF WOOF WOOF!

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackOffense View Post
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    Wow. So the OL that has given up both the most QB hits and sacks in the NFL is good at pass protection? That's quite an amazing analysis!
    And you Mr Dupa, are a flaming hypocrite.. Practice what you preach.. It seems like its ok for you to rag on people , when it's convenient for you. Take your YAZ. And get yourself some Vagisil to stop that burning itch in your crotch!.
    Last edited by nickers; 11-24-2015 at 02:01 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickers View Post
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    And you Mr Dupa, are a flaming hypocrite.. Practice what you preach.. It seems like its ok for you to rag on people , when it's convenient for you. Take your YAZ. And get yourself some Vagisil to stop that burning itch in your crotch!.
    I come here to talk Browns football. It would be nice if you and a half dozen other very immature people who go out of your way to be nasty toward people visited this board to do the same!

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    [attach=config]482[/attach


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    Quote Originally Posted by attackoffense View Post
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    i come here to talk browns football. It would be nice if you and a half dozen other very immature people who go out of your way to be nasty toward people visited this board to do the same!
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by nickers; 11-24-2015 at 10:46 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickers View Post
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    [attach=config]482[/attach


    ]
    i-m-m-a-t-u-r-e!

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackOffense View Post
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    i-m-m-a-t-u-r-e!
    Wait.. your not talking Browns... and you call Me immature.. go to hell.
    " There are no old running QB's in the NFL " ~ Sam Rutigliano. "
    I pray someone takes a stack of SPARQ stats, and shoves them up smug Sashi Browns tight asshole" ~TBPP



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    Quote Originally Posted by nickers View Post
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    Wait.. your not talking Browns... and you call Me immature.. go to hell.
    I-M-M-A-T-U-R-E. You and Johnny Manziel!

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