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Thread: Browns Players Vs. Browns Coaches .. Do we have a mutiny?

  1. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by threesheets View Post
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    Yeah, I don't expect everyone to agree, doesn't change my viewpoint unless someone can get me some facts to make me look at players/situations in a new light. Others are entitled to their own regardless.
    You were wrong.
    "A pessimist is one who says: 'Things can't get worse.' And an optimist is one who says, 'Yes they can.'" Alan Dershowitz

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    I'm very curious to read a serious argument for the mishandling of Gilbert. I'm struggling to understand that viewpoint.

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    Apparently from what Ive read from OBR..

    Gilbert has an extremely sensitive psyche, and his confidence is in the trash.

    Essentially, he may need a "build him up" approach, however Pettine is using the tough love method.

    What baffles me is that they say he looks good in practice, he just doesnt look good "inf the way" the coaches want.

    As in, he is still relying more on his physical gifts than technique

    The time has come! Our Dynasty lies ahead!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    I'm very curious to read a serious argument for the mishandling of Gilbert. I'm struggling to understand that viewpoint.
    Read PGL's post.
    "A pessimist is one who says: 'Things can't get worse.' And an optimist is one who says, 'Yes they can.'" Alan Dershowitz

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    Quote Originally Posted by PlaygroundLegend View Post
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    I guess my question to this is..

    Why did we go from essentially a top ten defense last year to the worst?

    Pretty much the same players
    My guess...O'Neil wasn't ready...and Pettine was spending more time on the O side of the ball. Pettine either needs to go back to the D, bring in a new guy for DC, or both.
    Football is all about synergy. Replace a poor player with a great player and watch the surrounding players suddenly seem vastly improved. When you aren't covering for someone else, you can do YOUR JOB better.



  6. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlaygroundLegend View Post
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    What baffles me is that they say he looks good in practice, he just doesnt look good "inf the way" the coaches want.

    As in, he is still relying more on his physical gifts than technique
    Hmmm...sounds strangely similar to the way they are handling Manziel. All kinds of reports of him doing great things in practice, but they kept him out until he started doing the things in a method that would be more likely to produce longevity and continued success. Physical skills can only take you so far (ask RGIII). Eventually you have to understand the scheme around you and how your role fits within it.

    Sounds to me like they still like the guy...are hoping he learns the scheme...and then his physical gifts PLUS working within the scheme can make him exceptional.

    Just thinkin'...
    Football is all about synergy. Replace a poor player with a great player and watch the surrounding players suddenly seem vastly improved. When you aren't covering for someone else, you can do YOUR JOB better.



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    Quote Originally Posted by DawgFan View Post
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    Hmmm...sounds strangely similar to the way they are handling Manziel. All kinds of reports of him doing great things in practice, but they kept him out until he started doing the things in a method that would be more likely to produce longevity and continued success. Physical skills can only take you so far (ask RGIII). Eventually you have to understand the scheme around you and how your role fits within it.

    Sounds to me like they still like the guy...are hoping he learns the scheme...and then his physical gifts PLUS working within the scheme can make him exceptional.

    Just thinkin'...
    Could be. Some times it works like that. Sometimes not. There are more ways than one to skin a cat. Maybe they need to rethink the deal with Gilbert
    "A pessimist is one who says: 'Things can't get worse.' And an optimist is one who says, 'Yes they can.'" Alan Dershowitz

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldDawgCliff View Post
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    Read PGL's post.
    I did. It wasn't a serious argument and I mean no offense to PGL at all. By "serious" I mean credible.

    An unnamed source with supposed insight into Gilbert's psyche that is at least as good as the Browns says the Browns aren't handling him right.

    I'll stick with the simpler explanation. The kid isn't grasping what it takes to play NFL football. My exhibit? K'Waun Williams who was drafted at the same time and is transitioning very well. I'd need better evidence of the staff's blind spot for finding the right way to teach/support K'Waun while being utterly inept in doing the same for Gilbert.

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    Wait.. some of these guys actually care? That'd be nice to see out on the field, eh?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DawgFan View Post
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    My guess...O'Neil wasn't ready...and Pettine was spending more time on the O side of the ball. Pettine either needs to go back to the D, bring in a new guy for DC, or both.
    Why are we talking about Pettine? Goodbye to a nice assistant coach in over his head. Go Central Bucks High!

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    Quote Originally Posted by PlaygroundLegend View Post
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    Apparently from what Ive read from OBR..

    Gilbert has an extremely sensitive psyche, and his confidence is in the trash.

    Essentially, he may need a "build him up" approach, however Pettine is using the tough love method.

    What baffles me is that they say he looks good in practice, he just doesnt look good "inf the way" the coaches want.

    As in, he is still relying more on his physical gifts than technique
    I've seen Gilbert play at Ok. St. he's an elite athlete. However, I've watched him play with the Browns, he out of position, gets beat deep, gets beat short, can't tackle, he's a mess. He's had two years to improve and hasn't. He's a Bust!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    I did. It wasn't a serious argument and I mean no offense to PGL at all. By "serious" I mean credible.

    An unnamed source with supposed insight into Gilbert's psyche that is at least as good as the Browns says the Browns aren't handling him right.

    I'll stick with the simpler explanation. The kid isn't grasping what it takes to play NFL football. My exhibit? K'Waun Williams who was drafted at the same time and is transitioning very well. I'd need better evidence of the staff's blind spot for finding the right way to teach/support K'Waun while being utterly inept in doing the same for Gilbert.
    Sounded pretty credible to me. From all we know about Gilbert, why would you say that it is not credible that Gilbert tends to rely on his physical gifts as opposed to techniques which the coaches prefer but that Gilbert might find difficult to absorb. Seems to me I remember Tramon Williams complaining about something like that recently. Here is a link to a recent story:

    http://nflspinzone.com/2015/11/16/cl...ettine-listen/

    Seems to me that I remember you having a problem with T. Williams opening his mouth about it, but consider what he said.

    As for your K'Waun Williams comparison, would it not be apparent to any unbiased observer that K. Williams is considerably less gifted physically than Gilbert and that he might therefore tend to try to make up for it with technique and would thus be more likely to be considered the preferred blue collar type over "entitled" more physically gifted types like Gilbert?

    Okay, just start with that. Seems to me that the rest fall reasonably in place.

    I think it makes more sense than your wild ass guess that Pettine and O'Neil are perfect in every way. Yes, I know you think it is simpler to make that assumption than to assume that they have faults too. I don't.

    It seems to me that the better thing to do would be go all out with teaching the better technique to the more physically talented kid that has a chance to be elite than to continue to favor the less talented kid, hard worker though he might be. I mean, if you are trying to build a winner, do you purposefully and intentionally try to do it with less gifted athletes?
    Last edited by Brownsfan; 11-17-2015 at 08:51 PM.
    "A pessimist is one who says: 'Things can't get worse.' And an optimist is one who says, 'Yes they can.'" Alan Dershowitz

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    Gifted, but lacking work ethic.

    You can lead a horse to water and all that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by twizbuck View Post
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    Gifted, but lacking work ethic.

    You can lead a horse to water and all that.
    Who said he lacked work ethic? Take a close look at his physical condition. Does he look like he lacks work ethic?

    I don't think that is the problem. I think the problem is that the kid has been mismanaged and that any competent organization and coaching staff would make a serious attempt to teach the proper techniques to the superior talent in lieu of merely favoring a less talented player because he has already mastered the desired technique.
    "A pessimist is one who says: 'Things can't get worse.' And an optimist is one who says, 'Yes they can.'" Alan Dershowitz

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    I'm pretty sure that was the point you were making...

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldDawgCliff View Post
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    Sounded pretty credible to me. From all we know about Gilbert, why would you say that it is not credible that Gilbert tends to rely on his physical gifts as opposed to techniques which the coaches prefer but that Gilbert might find difficult to absorb. Seems to me I remember Tramon Williams complaining about something like that recently. Here is a link to a recent story:

    http://nflspinzone.com/2015/11/16/cl...ettine-listen/

    Seems to me that I remember you having a problem with T. Williams opening his mouth about it, but consider what he said.

    As for your K'Waun Williams comparison, would it not be apparent to any unbiased observer that K. Williams is considerably less gifted physically than Gilbert and that he might therefore tend to try to make up for it with technique and would thus be more likely to be considered the preferred blue collar type over "entitled" more physically gifted types like Gilbert?

    Okay, just start with that. Seems to me that the rest fall reasonably in place.

    I think it makes more sense than your wild ass guess that Pettine and O'Neil are perfect in every way. Yes, I know you think it is simpler to make that assumption than to assume that they have faults too. I don't.

    It seems to me that the better thing to do would be go all out with teaching the better technique to the more physically talented kid that has a chance to be elite than to continue to favor the less talented kid, hard worker though he might be. I mean, if you are trying to build a winner, do you purposefully and intentionally try to do it with less gifted athletes?
    Bah, you cherry picked the one thing I failed to be specific about excluding. I'm more than willing to concede Gilbert's reliance on his physical gifts to the detriment of learned technique. You know damn well that wasn't what I was talking about but rather the assertion that Pettine and Co have failed by not somehow finding the magic way to teach the kid.

    There's shit for evidence that would tell anyone they haven't taught him over and over again what to do. The evidence is quite to the contrary: That he has been unable to absorb the lessons.

    Every corner to enter the league has to learn technique Cliff. You know that. K'Waun has had to learn too. He's actually been up to the tasks under the same coaches, same positional coaches, and same drills. Desir's in there too.

    The lone exception to any development so far out of that group is Gilbert. Yeah, the teacher's have been bad. Ok.

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    Complete wild ass guess Cliff. You've got nothing man, nothing. You just invented this storyline that Williams was somehow magically in possession of top flight NFL technique inferring the Browns didn't have to "teach" him. I guess the same goes for Desir and the rest of the CB group. The one guy who needed NFL technique was Gilbert. Yes, just Gilbert and the staff failed him because they're incompetent.

    Shit man. That's some crazy, made up shit there.

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    So a few player quotes and we get a thread with "is there a mutiny?" How bout unrest in the locker room? Players frustration leads to concerned quotes? Jeez. How many conspiracy threads we got in here? Unfortunately our record has the silly season starting way too early.

    Area 51. Thoughts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    Complete wild ass guess Cliff. You've got nothing man, nothing. You just invented this storyline that Williams was somehow magically in possession of top flight NFL technique inferring the Browns didn't have to "teach" him. I guess the same goes for Desir and the rest of the CB group. The one guy who needed NFL technique was Gilbert. Yes, just Gilbert and the staff failed him because they're incompetent.

    Shit man. That's some crazy, made up shit there.
    I didn't invent anything. You asked for a serious argument and PGL gave you one based on OBR insider crap that you immediately discounted out of hand because it didn't fit your agenda. Instead, you replaced it with an assumption based on absolutely nothing except your analysis of the color and consistency of your own shit.

    And when I called you on the absurdity, you accuse me of inventing the story.

    On the contrary, I merely made an argument based on the evidence/crap that PGL supplied based on OBR insider shit. I didn't invent anything. On the contrary, you are the creative genius. The way you push that shit around until you get it just right has got to be considered art of the highest order. In cleaner words, you can sew a vest onto a button with the best of them considering especially that the button is, itself, an assumed entity. Without a doubt, you are the best I ever saw.

    Congratulations.
    "A pessimist is one who says: 'Things can't get worse.' And an optimist is one who says, 'Yes they can.'" Alan Dershowitz

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thaid_Up View Post
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    So a few player quotes and we get a thread with "is there a mutiny?" How bout unrest in the locker room? Players frustration leads to concerned quotes? Jeez. How many conspiracy threads we got in here? Unfortunately our record has the silly season starting way too early.

    Area 51. Thoughts?
    You can complain about the quotes if you wish. Some have complained that the players ought to have kept their complaints inhouse. Some have sided with the coaches and others have sided with the players. But you can't say the quotes didn't exist and you can't say that they are meaningless.

    However, I don't think you will hear much more about it in the immediate future due to the announcement that Manziel will be starting the rest of the season. Manziel is a hell of a distraction and I would wager that most of that will now be forgotten.
    "A pessimist is one who says: 'Things can't get worse.' And an optimist is one who says, 'Yes they can.'" Alan Dershowitz

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    You can be willing to put in the physical work but not the mental, like studying your assignments or film.
    Some kids have great promise and can shine because of their athleticism at the collegian level but when they get to the pros being .1 seconds faster don't mean squat because everyone is so close physically.
    Too many first round picks bust because they think that big check and high spot mean they are already good enough and don't have to work. How many times have we seen it happen here? If those kids really were that talented, they would have went on to be special somewhere else.
    You learn something new everyday. Unless you have a brain injury, then it's all pretty much yelling and coloring.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tobalaz View Post
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    You can be willing to put in the physical work but not the mental, like studying your assignments or film.
    Some kids have great promise and can shine because of their athleticism at the collegian level but when they get to the pros being .1 seconds faster don't mean squat because everyone is so close physically.
    Too many first round picks bust because they think that big check and high spot mean they are already good enough and don't have to work. How many times have we seen it happen here? If those kids really were that talented, they would have went on to be special somewhere else.
    Browns do have a knack for bringing in players who are attitude problems. Lord, how do you miss on bad attitude guys like Tate, West and Gilbert? Amazing. At least they knew what they were getting in Gordon and Little. And neither changed! One former bad guy still hanging in there is Crowell. Give him some credit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thaid_Up View Post
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    So a few player quotes and we get a thread with "is there a mutiny?" How bout unrest in the locker room? Players frustration leads to concerned quotes? Jeez. How many conspiracy threads we got in here? Unfortunately our record has the silly season starting way too early.

    Area 51. Thoughts?

    You really dont want to get me going down the area 51 path

    The time has come! Our Dynasty lies ahead!

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    Gilbert could been used as a safety when gipson n whitner out?

    Desir bademosi r not nfl starting corner material n never will be. Desir wayyy too slow. Pettine likes underdog who works hard.....but cb is speed talent athleticsm and we obviously got0 pass rush and play off on 3rd n long.

    Gilbert seems he should be treated like #1 corner n build his confidence... Give advice to help him but put him n doghouse.

    Gilbert is top 5 athlete on team....n dont ever get use it

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