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Thread: Browns Players Vs. Browns Coaches .. Do we have a mutiny?

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    Quote Originally Posted by manzielthetruth View Post
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    Gilbert could been used as a safety when gipson n whitner out?

    Desir bademosi r not nfl starting corner material n never will be. Desir wayyy too slow. Pettine likes underdog who works hard.....but cb is speed talent athleticsm and we obviously got0 pass rush and play off on 3rd n long.

    Gilbert seems he should be treated like #1 corner n build his confidence... Give advice to help him but put him n doghouse.

    Gilbert is top 5 athlete on team....n dont ever get use it
    We had a discussion about Gilbert as a safety before, but I don't see it -- Gilbert's weaknesses are his on the field instincts and his tackling, and those are important traits for any safety.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    My advice? Focus on your job:


    Who knows. I'm generally not a fan of these discussions regarding the internal politics of the football team. I think the defensive coaches need to do a much better job. I think Farmer has to do a much better job getting us good players. I think the players on the team need to do a better job playing. When you're 32nd in defense, its hard to imagine swapping out O'Neil and Pettine for your favorites and seeing this unit jump to top 10. I think we have some real personnel problems, especially in the front seven; specifically the linebacking corps.

    And... our defensive secondary has been decimated by injuries all year. As I said in another post, it would have been interesting to see the top 5 DB's play extended minutes. I'm not sure they've even been on the field together at all this year. Its likely had a big impact.
    So can we blame the horrendous run D on secondary injuries? After all, the front seven was hand picked by Farmer & Pettine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackOffense View Post
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    Browns do have a knack for bringing in players who are attitude problems. Lord, how do you miss on bad attitude guys like Tate, West and Gilbert? Amazing. At least they knew what they were getting in Gordon and Little. And neither changed! One former bad guy still hanging in there is Crowell. Give him some credit.
    Apparently Pettine loves those hard workers with minimal talent. I LOVED (sarcasm) watching BAD-emosi get toasted by Antonio Brown. Care to tell me Gilbert could have done much worse?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hoorta View Post
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    Apparently Pettine loves those hard workers with minimal talent. I LOVED (sarcasm) watching BAD-emosi get toasted by Antonio Brown. Care to tell me Gilbert could have done much worse?
    Bademosi was, truly, pathetic. Good read on this. Pettine loves these un-talented hard workers. Mingo is another one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hoorta View Post
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    So can we blame the horrendous run D on secondary injuries? After all, the front seven was hand picked by Farmer & Pettine.
    Where did I connect those dots?

    I think our front seven talent is subpar. That shows up against the run big time and in our lack of a pass rush.

    Farmer's on point for personnel decisions. Where did this notion emerge from that Pettine hand picked his personnel?

    Pettine's got his own issues for sure, but putting the personnel decisions on him isn't being honest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    Where did I connect those dots?

    I think our front seven talent is subpar. That shows up against the run big time and in our lack of a pass rush.

    Farmer's on point for personnel decisions. Where did this notion emerge from that Pettine hand picked his personnel?

    Pettine's got his own issues for sure, but putting the personnel decisions on him isn't being honest.
    Pettine pretty much hand picked the secondary.

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    Pettine's specialty was the defense and he has failed miserably.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackOffense View Post
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    Pettine pretty much hand picked the secondary.
    He did? Link please. I honestly haven't read that anywhere. I've heard the rhetoric about Gilbert supposedly being his guy while also hearing that he'd simply told Farmer that another elite corner is a "need".

    Until I read otherwise, I'll assume the usual chain of command here: Farmer was the lead decision-maker on all personnel moves with Pettine contributing input along the way.

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    Grey, stop confusing these guys with truth and untwisted logic you are cruelly confusing them. shame shame shame on you. lol
    If you don't watch the games yourself and only parrot what the talking heads say YOU HAVE NOTHING TO WRITE THAT I CARE TO READ BECAUSE YOU ARE AN ASSHAT. i mean that in the best way possible of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PlaygroundLegend View Post
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    Apparently from what Ive read from OBR..

    Gilbert has an extremely sensitive psyche, and his confidence is in the trash.

    Essentially, he may need a "build him up" approach, however Pettine is using the tough love method.

    What baffles me is that they say he looks good in practice, he just doesnt look good "inf the way" the coaches want.

    As in, he is still relying more on his physical gifts than technique
    So what you are saying is he needs lots of hugs? FUCK THAT STUPID PANSY ASS BULLSHIT. I swear to God the metrosexual shit is getting out of hand on here. barking fags
    If you don't watch the games yourself and only parrot what the talking heads say YOU HAVE NOTHING TO WRITE THAT I CARE TO READ BECAUSE YOU ARE AN ASSHAT. i mean that in the best way possible of course.

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    Win. That's it. Everything else is bullshit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    Where did I connect those dots?

    I think our front seven talent is subpar. That shows up against the run big time and in our lack of a pass rush.

    Farmer's on point for personnel decisions. Where did this notion emerge from that Pettine hand picked his personnel?

    Pettine's got his own issues for sure, but putting the personnel decisions on him isn't being honest.
    The HC and GM have to be on the same page with some of the personnel decision. While Farmer may have the final decision, Pettine had some influence in some of the picks. Most notably, Justin Gilbert.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brownsfan1956 View Post
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    So what you are saying is he needs lots of hugs? FUCK THAT STUPID PANSY ASS BULLSHIT. I swear to God the metrosexual shit is getting out of hand on here. barking fags
    Barking fags?

    go root for the steelers bro

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gambler View Post
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    The HC and GM have to be on the same page with some of the personnel decision. While Farmer may have the final decision, Pettine had some influence in some of the picks. Most notably, Justin Gilbert.
    First, the HC and GM do not have to be on the same page at all. They SHOULD be but there's no reason to presume that's always the case. Hell, we're the poster child organization for supposed disfunction between those roles historically.

    Second, the GM in our structure has penultimate authority; final authority. This notion of attributing personnel moves primarily to Pettine seems disingenuous and perhaps more importantly unsubstantiated. For example, the selection of Justin Gilbert (by name; not generically an ask for a CB) has been attributed to Pettine. Where's the evidence? I'm assuming it may exist as this connection has been made many times. I just haven't seen/read it and would like to.... if it exists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    For example, the selection of Justin Gilbert (by name; not generically an ask for a CB) has been attributed to Pettine. Where's the evidence? I'm assuming it may exist as this connection has been made many times. I just haven't seen/read it and would like to.... if it exists.
    Here is the problem.

    The same broken logic is used for both the Gilbert and Manziel selection. The assumption is that somebody NOT named Farmer decided they wanted the player...and despite the fact that Farmer totally disagreed with the selection, he capitulated and got that player.

    What is far more likely is that the Browns as a whole (Farmer and his team, Pettine, etc) had Gilbert ranked in the top 10...and Farmer knew that Pettine liked/wanted a player with his apparent skillset...so all things being equal if he could get Gilbert and a pick then Farmer went all in and got Pettine a player he liked...but was also highly ranked on the Browns draft board.

    Same with Manziel. I have absolutely NO DOUBT that Haslam said "go get him" as reported. I just don't agree with the theory that it was against Farmer/Pettine's wishes. I think Manziel was likely on the Browns draft board somewhere in the low first to high second round. The team liked him better than Bridgewater and Carr...but they were likely willing to 'settle' for one of them. That is where Haslam comes in. He knows about the Vikings positioning to take him...then hears about the text...and says "go get him"...basically giving the OK to trade up to get him instead of 'settling' for one of the other two QB's. Jury is still out as to the final results...but right now it looks like it may have been a good decision (if Manziel continues to grow).

    The problem is this FO is always being tied to the last 15 years of instability and dysfunction...as if it was their fault. So the obvious knee-jerk reaction is that Haslam is meddling and that Pettine forced the issue against Farmer's will to get Gilbert. FAR more likely is both players were already considered highly on the board, but Farmer made some moves to get those players in specific.

    Everyone screams same old Browns...well, same old Browns fans too. Too short sighted to be patient, and then yelling and screaming about continuity when it all gets blown up again.
    Football is all about synergy. Replace a poor player with a great player and watch the surrounding players suddenly seem vastly improved. When you aren't covering for someone else, you can do YOUR JOB better.



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    Quote Originally Posted by DawgFan View Post
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    Here is the problem.

    The same broken logic is used for both the Gilbert and Manziel selection. The assumption is that somebody NOT named Farmer decided they wanted the player...and despite the fact that Farmer totally disagreed with the selection, he capitulated and got that player.

    What is far more likely is that the Browns as a whole (Farmer and his team, Pettine, etc) had Gilbert ranked in the top 10...and Farmer knew that Pettine liked/wanted a player with his apparent skillset...so all things being equal if he could get Gilbert and a pick then Farmer went all in and got Pettine a player he liked...but was also highly ranked on the Browns draft board.

    Same with Manziel. I have absolutely NO DOUBT that Haslam said "go get him" as reported. I just don't agree with the theory that it was against Farmer/Pettine's wishes. I think Manziel was likely on the Browns draft board somewhere in the low first to high second round. The team liked him better than Bridgewater and Carr...but they were likely willing to 'settle' for one of them. That is where Haslam comes in. He knows about the Vikings positioning to take him...then hears about the text...and says "go get him"...basically giving the OK to trade up to get him instead of 'settling' for one of the other two QB's. Jury is still out as to the final results...but right now it looks like it may have been a good decision (if Manziel continues to grow).

    The problem is this FO is always being tied to the last 15 years of instability and dysfunction...as if it was their fault. So the obvious knee-jerk reaction is that Haslam is meddling and that Pettine forced the issue against Farmer's will to get Gilbert. FAR more likely is both players were already considered highly on the board, but Farmer made some moves to get those players in specific.

    Everyone screams same old Browns...well, same old Browns fans too. Too short sighted to be patient, and then yelling and screaming about continuity when it all gets blown up again.
    This is an outstanding post. Every single word makes sense. It is possible that a detail may not be perfectly stated--although I doubt even that. I am in particular agreement with the final two paragraphs.
    "A pessimist is one who says: 'Things can't get worse.' And an optimist is one who says, 'Yes they can.'" Alan Dershowitz

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    First, the HC and GM do not have to be on the same page at all. They SHOULD be but there's no reason to presume that's always the case. Hell, we're the poster child organization for supposed disfunction between those roles historically.

    Second, the GM in our structure has penultimate authority; final authority. This notion of attributing personnel moves primarily to Pettine seems disingenuous and perhaps more importantly unsubstantiated. For example, the selection of Justin Gilbert (by name; not generically an ask for a CB) has been attributed to Pettine. Where's the evidence? I'm assuming it may exist as this connection has been made many times. I just haven't seen/read it and would like to.... if it exists.
    Ridiculous to think that Farmer and Pettine weren't lock step together on the strategy to strengthen the depth and talent in the secondary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DawgFan View Post
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    Here is the problem.

    The same broken logic is used for both the Gilbert and Manziel selection. The assumption is that somebody NOT named Farmer decided they wanted the player...and despite the fact that Farmer totally disagreed with the selection, he capitulated and got that player.

    What is far more likely is that the Browns as a whole (Farmer and his team, Pettine, etc) had Gilbert ranked in the top 10...and Farmer knew that Pettine liked/wanted a player with his apparent skillset...so all things being equal if he could get Gilbert and a pick then Farmer went all in and got Pettine a player he liked...but was also highly ranked on the Browns draft board.

    Same with Manziel. I have absolutely NO DOUBT that Haslam said "go get him" as reported. I just don't agree with the theory that it was against Farmer/Pettine's wishes. I think Manziel was likely on the Browns draft board somewhere in the low first to high second round. The team liked him better than Bridgewater and Carr...but they were likely willing to 'settle' for one of them. That is where Haslam comes in. He knows about the Vikings positioning to take him...then hears about the text...and says "go get him"...basically giving the OK to trade up to get him instead of 'settling' for one of the other two QB's. Jury is still out as to the final results...but right now it looks like it may have been a good decision (if Manziel continues to grow).

    The problem is this FO is always being tied to the last 15 years of instability and dysfunction...as if it was their fault. So the obvious knee-jerk reaction is that Haslam is meddling and that Pettine forced the issue against Farmer's will to get Gilbert. FAR more likely is both players were already considered highly on the board, but Farmer made some moves to get those players in specific.

    Everyone screams same old Browns...well, same old Browns fans too. Too short sighted to be patient, and then yelling and screaming about continuity when it all gets blown up again.
    The Browns had an intensive study of the QBs entering the draft and the study concluded Bridgewater would be the best choice for the Browns. I doubt very much there was a "Team" consensus around selecting Manziel! In fact, I find that assertion highly questionable.

    And the problem with the Browns? The 15 years of instability and dysfunction is the RESULT of extraordinarily bad hiring decisions. POOR HIRING is THE PROBLEM! As it is usually THE difference between high performing and lower performing companies in the business world!

    The Browns need to become GOOD in hiring GMs and Head Coaches. Once that is accomplished, everything else falls into place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackOffense View Post
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    The Browns had an intensive study of the QBs entering the draft and the study concluded Bridgewater would be the best choice for the Browns. I doubt very much there was a "Team" consensus around selecting Manziel! In fact, I find that assertion highly questionable.
    Think back and you will remember that the study you refer to was conducted on behalf of Banner/Lombardi and their group...not Farmer. Besides which, it also was completed before TB decided to tell the world he did not want to be in Cleveland, then bombed his pro-day, causing his meteoric drop in opinion polls. That wonderful study didn't account for any of that.

    Besides...the study said he was the 'most likely to succeed'....not 'had the highest ceiling' or 'fits what you are looking for'. It may very well be that the Browns NEW regime deemed the hand issue more important, or his attitude towards Cleveland, or even his failure to perform under the pressure of a pro-day.
    Football is all about synergy. Replace a poor player with a great player and watch the surrounding players suddenly seem vastly improved. When you aren't covering for someone else, you can do YOUR JOB better.



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    Quote Originally Posted by DawgFan View Post
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    Think back and you will remember that the study you refer to was conducted on behalf of Banner/Lombardi and their group...not Farmer. Besides which, it also was completed before TB decided to tell the world he did not want to be in Cleveland, then bombed his pro-day, causing his meteoric drop in opinion polls. That wonderful study didn't account for any of that.

    Besides...the study said he was the 'most likely to succeed'....not 'had the highest ceiling' or 'fits what you are looking for'. It may very well be that the Browns NEW regime deemed the hand issue more important, or his attitude towards Cleveland, or even his failure to perform under the pressure of a pro-day.
    You're known for your inaccuracies and now something new for me to correct ... Bridgewater didn't talk about not wanting to play in Cleveland until after the NFL draft, around May 12. http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/10...eveland-browns

    I give Bridgewater a lot of credit for his good judgment! Farmer and Pettine are clueless about offense -- and Teddy clearly saw that -- and Bridgewater's Vikings are 7-2, instead of playing with a team that is 2-8 and is devoid of playmakers.
    Last edited by AttackOffense; 11-20-2015 at 04:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greythan View Post
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    First, the HC and GM do not have to be on the same page at all. They SHOULD be but there's no reason to presume that's always the case. Hell, we're the poster child organization for supposed disfunction between those roles historically.

    Second, the GM in our structure has penultimate authority; final authority. This notion of attributing personnel moves primarily to Pettine seems disingenuous and perhaps more importantly unsubstantiated. For example, the selection of Justin Gilbert (by name; not generically an ask for a CB) has been attributed to Pettine. Where's the evidence? I'm assuming it may exist as this connection has been made many times. I just haven't seen/read it and would like to.... if it exists.
    Are you suggesting that the GM is going to make every draft decision based on his own assessment. So Pettine had no in-put into what positions needed to be addressed. I'm not buying that at all. I did say some draft picks' not all, and I did say Farmer would have the final word on who was drafted. And I never suggested that Pettine was to blame for the poor draft picks. Grey, I don't get your point. Most of this board will agree that Farmer has done a bad job as GM. And most would agree that Pettine has done a bad job as HC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gambler View Post
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    Are you suggesting that the GM is going to make every draft decision based on his own assessment. So Pettine had no in-put into what positions needed to be addressed. I'm not buying that at all. I did say some draft picks' not all, and I did say Farmer would have the final word on who was drafted. And I never suggested that Pettine was to blame for the poor draft picks. Grey, I don't get your point. Most of this board will agree that Farmer has done a bad job as GM. And most would agree that Pettine has done a bad job as HC.
    Based on the little that I have been able to observe specifically, I strongly suspect that Pettine has done a bad job of developing our young players. And considering the apparent regression of the defense, it appears even more likely that the coaching staff on the defensive side, including Pettine, have done a bad job of coaching the defense and/or have implemented a bad defensive scheme. In that regard, it would appear that the results speak for themselves.

    I am not sure it follows that both Farmer and Pettine have done a bad job, although that also seems possible.
    "A pessimist is one who says: 'Things can't get worse.' And an optimist is one who says, 'Yes they can.'" Alan Dershowitz

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldDawgCliff View Post
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    Based on the little that I have been able to observe specifically, I strongly suspect that Pettine has done a bad job of developing our young players. And considering the apparent regression of the defense, it appears even more likely that the coaching staff on the defensive side, including Pettine, have done a bad job of coaching the defense and/or have implemented a bad defensive scheme. In that regard, it would appear that the results speak for themselves.

    I am not sure it follows that both Farmer and Pettine have done a bad job, although that also seems possible.
    I'd call it a catastrophe! You can't tell me kids like Shelton, Orchard, Desir, Gaines and Cooper don't have talent.

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    There's no doubt that the defensive problems span every responsible party from GM to coaches to the players. You don't end up ranked in the bottom five without an across the board failure it would seem to me.

    There are some bright spots on the "young player" side however. The following guys have shown some good signs rather early in their careers:

    K Williams
    Desir
    Meder

    As for the long list of rookies, they've played a grand total of 10 games. Seems a bit premature to declare anything as being "failed" in terms of their contributions/development thus far. Underwhelming? Sure, I'll bite on that description. Still, its hard to determine with the rookies and even the second year guys how much of their "lack of impact" is due to scheme, coaching, or lack of elite talent.

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