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Thread: The Kizer-Kessler Thread!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaydog View Post
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    Good GM's believe elite, generational talented QB's of the future will bring continuity and stability.

    There was one of those in this years draft apparently. Article out this morning quotes AFC and NFC scouts as saying Trubisky was rated higher coming out than any QB in the past 6 years. (think about the QBs drafted in the past 6 years) As usual, armchair draftniks & Hue (the Carson Palmer trade laugher) Jackson were dead wrong. He is turning heads in Chi-town and by all accounts people are already excited after rookie camp alone.

    But we have a DE who is slow off the ball and stuff.


    Oops, negativity. I mean, man what an awesome draft, generational DE, generational unknown position player, and the #1 generational QB talent somehow had in the 2nd round!!! #generational #nailedit #playoffbound

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    I get what you're saying there Gabe. I don't fully disagree either. I had Trubisky on my NoMatterWhat post-it since November.

    In Sashi's defense, nobody saw a record setting move-up for 3 QB's.

    However, I will not forget the draftnicks track record on this one. QB's will all be elevated for the next 5 years or so in mock drafts and analysts big boards due to last month's results.

    We've already heard "the first 3 picks may all be QB's next year". They're already changing their tune.
    2017 Draft class: Garrett, Peppers, Njoku, Kizer, Ogunjobi, Collins (via trade of 103), Wilson, Johnson, Brantley, Gonzalez, Dayes
    2018 Draft picks: Extra picks - a 1st (Texans), two in 2nd (Eagles & Texans), a 4th (Panthers/A.Lee), & a 6th (Steelers/Gilbert) - 12 total
    Philly trade result: C. Coleman, Peppers, Kizer, Kessler, R. Louis, S. Coleman, Drango, Kindred, Payton, 2018 1st rndr (Texans) & 2018 2nd rndr (Eagles)
    Training Camp schedule: Rookies report 7/23, vets 7/26, 1st practice 7/27

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    As NFL Network's Andrew Siciliano commented yesterday on 92 The Fan, "That's crazy." He noted some of the QBs drafted in the past six years, namely:

    Marcus Mariota
    Jameis Winston
    Cam Newton
    Russell Wilson
    Andrew Luck

    Whoever these scouts were, they're either very dumb for making that comment or very smart for being able to judge a QB who played so little and still be able to determine that he's better than those five QBs. I'd say the odds favor the former.
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    FTR, I don't get why the Andy is Cinci gets bashed constantly for getting to the playoffs nearly every year and the Andy in Indy is considered to be the QB standard of all drafts, yet he regularly misses the playoffs.
    2017 Draft class: Garrett, Peppers, Njoku, Kizer, Ogunjobi, Collins (via trade of 103), Wilson, Johnson, Brantley, Gonzalez, Dayes
    2018 Draft picks: Extra picks - a 1st (Texans), two in 2nd (Eagles & Texans), a 4th (Panthers/A.Lee), & a 6th (Steelers/Gilbert) - 12 total
    Philly trade result: C. Coleman, Peppers, Kizer, Kessler, R. Louis, S. Coleman, Drango, Kindred, Payton, 2018 1st rndr (Texans) & 2018 2nd rndr (Eagles)
    Training Camp schedule: Rookies report 7/23, vets 7/26, 1st practice 7/27

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaydog View Post
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    Good GM's believe elite, generational talented QB's of the future will bring continuity and stability.
    I agree but only GMs with a time machine can pick one before they become elite.
    The reverse, continuity and stability can reveal an elite QB that you weren't expecting to be so.

    I think the 'elite' QBs share a few things:

    Experience, study, practice and confidence to make a play.
    He plays for a team with good enough players offense and defense that his play makes a difference in wins.
    He make TIMELY plays. (not just the end of the game)
    "He can make all the throws" is writer gibberish and means nothing. Making plays with the game on the line is the big one! Not only that, until you get to the point where games are on the line to make the playoffs you don't know what kind of QB you have.

    Here is something I came across relating to 'Arm Talent'. This seems to mean velocity to a lot of people.
    From a story in Pro Football Weekly:
    "Most if not all of the top quarterbacks in the league never had their velocity measured at the Combine. I guarantee you that some of the greatest of all-time would have “flunked’ the velocity test. Coming out of college Peyton Manning had a good, but not a great arm. Tom Brady actually had a bit less than a good arm and Drew Brees' arm strength coming out was below average at best.


    How did we know this? We watched practice live and a lot of game tape. I was at a Purdue practice during Brees' final year and he struggled to complete a 12-yard out in windy conditions. I was at Peyton Manning’s Pro Day and in a scripted workout he showed far less than a cannon. One of the knocks on Brady coming out was he couldn’t “drive” the ball.


    After each of these quarterbacks spent some time in the National Football League, their arm strength improved. In fact, not only did it improve, but it improved dramatically."

    So much drooling over Kizer gets to me sometimes.
    So many are anointing him and he may not be as good as Hogan.

    Falcons-
    Ryan was a decent QB from the get go.
    At around year 5 he became a very good QB to me.
    This past year(9) when he cut his ints way down he became elite to me.

    Kessler was a decent QB from the get go.
    I really hope it doesn't take 5 years but you see where I'm going.


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    Quote Originally Posted by KJP View Post
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    very smart for being able to judge a QB who played so little
    Siciliano? lol

    It took me about 4 hours. QB who played so little. lol That is so played out. A phrase for armchair draftniks. All the tools. Natural talent. Some elite skillsets. It's simple.

    I do hate the spot he landed in though. Suddenly Loggains is going to be a great OC.

    In any case, Hue did what he did. At least Sashi tried to save the draft for us. Still a shame the kid from Mentor who felt destiny calling his name will have to do it for a city down the road. We'll see how it plays out, glad it's an NFC team.

    Quote Originally Posted by KJP View Post
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    be able to determine that he's better than those five QBs.
    They never said that. They said he rates higher as a prospect.

    I can't stand it when a player whines to me or his teammates or his wife or the writers or anyone else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OconRecon View Post
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    FTR, I don't get why the Andy is Cinci gets bashed constantly for getting to the playoffs nearly every year and the Andy in Indy is considered to be the QB standard of all drafts, yet he regularly misses the playoffs.
    For starters, last year, with Andy Dalton, the Bengals were 6-9-1. Last year, with Andrew Luck, the Colts were 8-8.

    Without Dalton, the Bengals would likely have been 6-9-1. Without Luck, the Colts would likely have been 1-15.

    Perhaps that might have something to do with it.
    "A pessimist is one who says: 'Things can't get worse.' And an optimist is one who says, 'Yes they can.'" Alan Dershowitz
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brownsfan View Post
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    I think that if Kizer is developed properly, he can be that elite generational talent. I think Kessler is a necessary bridge to that elite generational talent.
    Many decades ago I did a lot of LSD myself..I get that it's Friday and time for some recreation but gee whiz your hallucinations are LSD 25 worthy. Enjoy the trip.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBestPlayersPlay View Post
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    Siciliano? lol

    It took me about 4 hours. QB who played so little. lol That is so played out. A phrase for armchair draftniks. All the tools. Natural talent. Some elite skillsets. It's simple.

    I do hate the spot he landed in though. Suddenly Loggains is going to be a great OC.

    In any case, Hue did what he did. At least Sashi tried to save the draft for us. Still a shame the kid from Mentor who felt destiny calling his name will have to do it for a city down the road. We'll see how it plays out, glad it's an NFC team.



    They never said that. They said he rates higher as a prospect.
    Destiny? Tried to save the draft?



    Hyperbole much?

    He's in a bad situation in Chicago...who severely overpaid for a non-generational talent. Hell, he wasn't even the best QB in the draft..he's in Texas. Wasting the 1st pick on him would have been a disaster for this organization who is now (thanks to the smart guys prevailing) are setting themselves up for success.
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    Andrew Siciliano = NFL Network anchor
    TBPP = volunteer moderator of a nice little website

    No offense, but I'm going with the NFL Network anchor on this and probably all other appraisals of players coming out of college. Oh, by the way, LOL right back at ya.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KJP View Post
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    No offense, but I'm going with the NFL Network anchor on this and probably all other appraisals of players coming out of college. Oh, by the way, LOL right back at ya.
    Feel free, I'll put my 8 years of archived prognostications against his any day. Do appreciate the insult though. And volunteering for your enjoyment is not the only thing I do with my life. But that's top secret stuff right there. Shhhh.

    If there's is anything we have learned about today's journalist ...they rarely if ever tell the truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBestPlayersPlay View Post
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    If there's is anything we have learned about today's journalist ...they rarely if ever tell the truth.
    Completely agree. I also believe the Chicago journalist made up sources regarding Trubisky being considered the best QB prospect since Luck. Smart way to make your work go viral, but common sense suggests that's not realistic.

    I trust Kyle Shanahan and Hue Jackson, neither of whom had interest in Trubisky, over Ryan Pace. I mean, I gotta question your QB knowledge when you just gave $45M to Mike Glennon.

    I think Pace is pure and simple desperate. People were calling for Chicago to be overhauled, and he's convinced himself that Trubisky is the greatest of all time. Jackson and Shanahan, with greater job security, happily passed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brownsdownunder View Post
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    Completely agree. I also believe the Chicago journalist made up sources regarding Trubisky being considered the best QB prospect since Luck. Smart way to make your work go viral, but common sense suggests that's not realistic.

    I trust Kyle Shanahan and Hue Jackson, neither of whom had interest in Trubisky, over Ryan Pace. I mean, I gotta question your QB knowledge when you just gave $45M to Mike Glennon.

    I think Pace is pure and simple desperate. People were calling for Chicago to be overhauled, and he's convinced himself that Trubisky is the greatest of all time. Jackson and Shanahan, with greater job security, happily passed.
    The flip side, how much did we get Osweiller for? Although I do like the pick
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    You never know. I think the chances of Osweiler starting this year are not good assuming a healthy Kessler. He might actually be better with all things equal. But they are not equal. Three systems in three years is not a prescription for excellence by a quarterback. Kessler is the one who knows the system. If Osweiler plays, he will be as limited as Kessler was last year. But suppose he hangs around for a year or two. Suppose Kizer bombs out and Kessler has multiple concussions. Stranger things have happened.
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    There's no doubt the QB spot is in a precarious position. Kessler gets hurt, Hues offense is again limited like last year. Then 56 prediction comes true and TBPP prediction comes true.... Surely the stars are not aligned that way....
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    Shanahan and Hue Jackson. Two failed coaches. And neither a GM and at least one of those two muscled himself into making a GM decision. To each their own. Again, I'll stand by my record.


    Common sense suggests it is exceedingly realistic being that a team traded up to 2nd overall to draft the QB.



    Apparently you don't trust Sashi Brown ...who desperately wanted the QB that went #2 overall but was overruled by his owner.


    Quote Originally Posted by Stray Dawg View Post
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    Then 56 prediction comes true and TBPP prediction comes true

    Which predictions are we talking about?
    Last edited by TheBestPlayersPlay; 05-20-2017 at 03:48 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBestPlayersPlay View Post
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    Shanahan and Hue Jackson. Two failed coaches. And neither a GM and at least one of those two muscled himself into making a GM decision. To each their own. Again, I'll stand by my record.
    All due respect but I'm taking Shanny and Hue Jackson over any casual fan - I'd take them over me, too. They're in the NFL for a reason. We're not in the NFL for a reason. I don't know what record you're standing by against NFL coaches who are being paid millions of dollars, who have been to the playoffs and are widely respected around the league for being very good at what they do. If they didn't want him, I won't argue. You make great evaluations, everyone here is far more intelligent than the average fan, but we'd all look stupid if we were standing next to an NFL head coach. That's just realistic.

    Ryan Pace doesn't change anything for me regarding his affections when his attempts at fixing the Bears QB woes prior to Trubisky are Jimmy Clausen, Brian Hoyer, Matt Barkley and a huge contract for Mike Glennon. It was also strongly reported that John Fox was not made aware of the decision to take Trubisky until minutes to midnight, which I find interesting.

    Common sense suggests it is exceedingly realistic being that a team traded up to 2nd overall to draft the QB.
    Holmgren on attempting to trade up for Andrew Luck.

    I talked to [Grigson] last year before we made the trade. I said, "I'll give you all of our draft picks for the No. 1 pick, and I'll take Luck. I'll give the whole draft to you." I said, "Ryan, let's do the deal, right now, right here." He said, "We're taking Luck." We were by the pool, I might've even had a lemonade in my hand. He didn't take me seriously, because I was ready to pull the trigger.
    That's what attempting to trade up for the best QB since Manning looks like - That's like 12 selections, an entire draft worth of picks, not even being considered as a realistic attempt.

    Meanwhile, MMQB did a story from within the 49ers draft room and they had no idea Trubisky was going to be the selection. Only one guy in the room said "Call me crazy, but I think they might want Trubisky." The 49ers didn't actually expect anyone to have a grade like that on him. So we know for a fact the Bears were bidding against themselves for a QB who wasn't going to be selected by the 49ers anyway. That's egg on the face of Ryan Pace - his desperation needlessly cost him two 3rd round selections and one 4th round selection.

    If any other team genuinely thought Trubisky was a better prospect than Luck and Newton, the Bears would have needed to give up multiple first round selections in a heated trade attempt for him - no way they'd have been the only team to call.

    Apparently you don't trust Sashi Brown ...who desperately wanted the QB that went #2 overall but was overruled by his owner.
    Where did you get this from?

    There is nothing but reports the Browns unanimously agreed on Garrett. Footage from within the Browns draft room showed Sashi on cloud nine when the Garrett pick was made. He and Hue Jackson were fist bumping at their presser following the first round, and Sashi was as enthusiastic and happy as I've ever seen him. He looked downright arrogant he was so confident with the Browns selections.

    That's been confirmed by the likes of Silver and Rappoport. Rap reported this week, regarding any Browns trade up for a QB, "Barring them possibly trading up for a quarterback in the first round. Which, again, the public made a lot more of that than the actual team did. It really was not much of a possibility there."

    Rap also reported yesterday when Garrett signed his contract, "The Browns always knew they were going to sign (Garrett)...The main thing was to get it done and get him on the field because you could not say enough about what the Browns think of this player. They have a defense now, obviously a new defensive co-ordinator with Gregg Williams, they believe this is going to be the future lynchpin. A pick they really did not think twice about. It was Myles Garrett all the way, from the past several weeks before the draft, all the way through to the time they announced his name."

    That strong backs up interviews in the weeks leading up to the draft in which Sashi happily boasted that he knew who the Browns were going to draft - essentially ruling out a trade back and having some fun with a decision he seemed very comfortable with.

    There is nothing that suggests anything untoward happened in the Browns draft room - especially something as serious as Hue Jackson forcing a selection against the wishes of the front office. If there was anything even remotely solid, it would be news beyond news. Instead, there is only love regarding what the Browns did with this draft.

    I understand if you're frustrated, that's cool, but nothing actually suggests this wasn't a collective team decision to take Garrett over Trubisky. In fact, the strongest rumors we've got are that the Browns are very comfortable with Kessler and only took Kizer because he wasn't projected to be available at #52 so it came as a surprise the team had the chance to draft him.

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    It's not too difficult to invent a false narrative when you are completely obsessed with a prospect, we've seen it multiple times with PGL and Manziel and now Tbpp is sticking to his guns with Trubisky.

    Let the above post by BDU be the voice of reason, any other scenerio is based on nothing more than ones own personal confirmation bias.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brownsfan View Post
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    For starters, last year, with Andy Dalton, the Bengals were 6-9-1. Last year, with Andrew Luck, the Colts were 8-8.

    Without Dalton, the Bengals would likely have been 6-9-1. Without Luck, the Colts would likely have been 1-15.

    Perhaps that might have something to do with it.
    8-8 is the standard bearer? Meh. And for the years they lacked him, doesn't that have something to do with the backup QB?
    I get they're both good, but Andrew Luck shouldn't be held up as THE gold standard.
    And if he ends up winning Super Bowls, the moral of the story should be "be patient" with your highly drafted QB.

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    The flip side, how much did we get Osweiller for? Although I do like the pick
    We got him and a 2nd round pick for 15% of our available cap space. #SashiBall
    Last edited by OconRecon; 05-20-2017 at 08:06 AM.
    2017 Draft class: Garrett, Peppers, Njoku, Kizer, Ogunjobi, Collins (via trade of 103), Wilson, Johnson, Brantley, Gonzalez, Dayes
    2018 Draft picks: Extra picks - a 1st (Texans), two in 2nd (Eagles & Texans), a 4th (Panthers/A.Lee), & a 6th (Steelers/Gilbert) - 12 total
    Philly trade result: C. Coleman, Peppers, Kizer, Kessler, R. Louis, S. Coleman, Drango, Kindred, Payton, 2018 1st rndr (Texans) & 2018 2nd rndr (Eagles)
    Training Camp schedule: Rookies report 7/23, vets 7/26, 1st practice 7/27
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    Quote Originally Posted by OconRecon View Post
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    I get they're both good, but Andrew Luck shouldn't be held up as THE gold standard.
    And if he ends up winning Super Bowls, the moral of the story should be "be patient" with your highly drafted QB.
    If he ends up winning Super Bowls, it'll be because they finally put a team around him that doesn't suck ass.

    They went 8-7 with a quarterback who threw 4,200 yards, 31 touchdowns and 13 interceptions.

    Who did they lose to?

    Houston x2.
    Oakland.
    Jacksonville.
    KC.
    Denver.
    Detroit.

    That's one reason I love what we're doing. At the moment, we're focused on building a really good team around our QBotF, which is hopefully Kizer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OconRecon View Post
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    8-8 is the standard bearer? Meh. And for the years they lacked him, doesn't that have something to do with the backup QB?
    I get they're both good, but Andrew Luck shouldn't be held up as THE gold standard.
    And if he ends up winning Super Bowls, the moral of the story should be "be patient" with your highly drafted QB.
    Well, first, any quarterback no matter how talented needs to be healthy in order to perform well and that includes Andrew Luck. I am sure that the folks in Indianapolis are hoping like hell right now that he will be ready to play in their week 1 game after shoulder surgery in January. But when Luck is right, there is no one better.

    Dalton has been the beneficiary of having around him some of the more talented guys in the NFL. It helps a quarterback when he has guys like Green and Eifert to throw to and when he is throwing from behind the offensive line that Cincinnati has had in recent years. We will see how he does behind a line sans Whitworth and Zeitler this year. Maybe their replacements will do well. We shall see. If so, Dalton might also continue to do relatively well.
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    I only come here for the pissing contests.

    Disputing Andrew Lucks value is plain silly. Take Luck off of the Colts last year and we are picking second. Without Luck the Colts roster is as bad as ours....possibly worse.
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    His value is high. I'd take him in a hot second. I'm just saying I get tired of hearing "there's no Andrew Luck in this draft", when really, he's at the Dalton and Romo level of accomplishments - which isn't half bad, it just isn't all good.

    But hey, his QBR was 4 points higher than Kessler's last year, so let's put him on the highest pedestal.
    2017 Draft class: Garrett, Peppers, Njoku, Kizer, Ogunjobi, Collins (via trade of 103), Wilson, Johnson, Brantley, Gonzalez, Dayes
    2018 Draft picks: Extra picks - a 1st (Texans), two in 2nd (Eagles & Texans), a 4th (Panthers/A.Lee), & a 6th (Steelers/Gilbert) - 12 total
    Philly trade result: C. Coleman, Peppers, Kizer, Kessler, R. Louis, S. Coleman, Drango, Kindred, Payton, 2018 1st rndr (Texans) & 2018 2nd rndr (Eagles)
    Training Camp schedule: Rookies report 7/23, vets 7/26, 1st practice 7/27
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  24. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by OconRecon View Post
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    His value is high. I'd take him in a hot second. I'm just saying I get tired of hearing "there's no Andrew Luck in this draft", when really, he's at the Dalton and Romo level of accomplishments - which isn't half bad, it just isn't all good.

    But hey, his QBR was 4 points higher than Kessler's last year, so let's put him on the highest pedestal.
    If anything I think Andrew Luck signifies the importance of an OL and coaching. Talent, intelligence, and arm strength are great - but don't help you on your back or on the IR
    I am proud of you, Hitler, you're taking steps forward. - Brownsdownunder
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