Pro Football Focus: Rating the Browns Starters | Barking Hard

Pro Football Focus: Rating the Browns Starters

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Just took a peek at the Pro Football Focus depth chart ratings for the Browns -- posted Feb. 19 on Facebook -- and thought this might generate some discussion. Of course, this starting group will change some over the next few months and, in fact, has already changed. But I think it's instructive. I guess they don't have enough data on Manziel and Gilbert to rate them.

BTW, they did not include Skrine on the list, assuming he will go elsewhere. Same with Cameron. PFF gave Hartline an average grade on the Miami depth chart and I know McCown had a -16.6 rating for his performance in 2014, not so hot and probably would be rated below average by PFF.

Where I disagree is that I think Robertson is average, not below average. Overall I think Taylor is below average but he gets motivated every once a while and plays well, just doing enough each season to fool people. On offense, the very good rating for Hawkins may raise some eyebrows but PFF even wrote a little about it to defend their rating. Where I agree with PFF -- and many on this board won't -- is their rating of West and Crowell, which is below average. I think that when you look at their total body of work, they are a little below average. Hopefully both will show improvement in 2015 with a year under their collective belts.

On defense, PFF Browns Starter Ratings:
Elite: None
Very Good: Dansby, Haden,Whitner
Good: Gipson, Kruger, Williams
Average: D. Bryant, Taylor, Kitchen, Mingo
Below Average: Robertson
Unknown: Gilbert

On offense, PFF Browns Starter Ratings:
Elite: Thomas
Very Good: Bitonio, Mack, Hawkins
Good: Schwartz, Greco
Average: Gabriel, Benjamin
Below Average : West (and Crowell), and Dray
Unknown: Manziel, Barnidge (they rate a TE-L and TE-R)

IN COMPARISON: The Ravens have 7 offensive players rated good or better and 7 defensive players rated good or better, for a total of 14. The Browns have 12 players rated good or better, but the Browns are well positioned to improve that.
 
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What exactly is the rationale of their ratings? What's their methodology?

Regarding West/Crow. IMO it's not surprising given we had a committee backfield most of the season because these guys were losing favour due to mistakes they would make on or off the field. I think there's reason to believe they, being rookies, will grow in to better backs. They're worth keeping around though I think adding a back for competitive sake is a good idea.

Hard to argue with the rest of it other than, as you said, I think Robertson should be "average" as well.

Don't really disagree with anything else. Gipson maybe bordering on v.good but that's debatable.

It's nice to see Hawk well regarded, and Gabriel/Benji earning similar grades makes sense as I felt they were both about equal. Benjamin, eh I've seen what I've seen in his time in the NFL and I'm not exactly taken by him. I like Gabriel. I think we still draft/sign UDFA fresh meat to compete with these guys (And Hartline, how'd he rank out on this system, my guess is below average?)
 
If Joe Haden ain't elite then there isn't elite corner anywhere. Like gipson he should 've been back to back probowlers. 6 picks a year with this year ended short with injury. That's with worst nfl defensive line imo last year.
 
AO....nice stuff, and definitely worth discussing. I will put my changes below in red...and then comment

On defense, PFF Browns Starter Ratings:
Elite: None Haden
Very Good: Dansby, Whitner, Gipson
Good: Kruger, Williams, Mingo
Average: D. Bryant, Taylor, Kitchen, Robertson
Below Average:
Unknown: Gilbert

On offense, PFF Browns Starter Ratings:
Elite: Thomas
Very Good: Bitonio, Mack, Hawkins
Good: Schwartz, Greco
Average: Gabriel, Benjamin
Below Average : West (and Crowell), and Dray
Unknown: Manziel, Barnidge (they rate a TE-L and TE-R)

I think Haden is elite. I say this because of his ability to shut down elite WR's. Yes, he does get burned, but that is due in a large part to the style of coverge the Browns play. They utilize the press/man coverage....the only team in the NFL to run that as the PRIMARY coverage....and that means BOTH corners are on islands over 50% of the time. This is also one of the reasons it took Gilbert/Desir so long to crack the lineup.

I think Gipson should be very good. You don't lead the NFL in INT's two years in a row by being 'just' good.

I agree with you on Robertson being at least average....

...but here is the one many will disagree with. I see Mingo as being 'good'. I agree with the comments many make that he was 'drafted' to be a sack machine...and he has not developed that to the level we would expect for a first round pick...with that said, draft slot no longer matters. What matters is what he does on the field and how well he does it....and the fact is he is one of the top coverage LB's in the league. He set a pretty good edge despite being smallish and a bad wing...and he DID get a pretty high number of pressures when compared to the number of attempts. His versatility alone warrants a 'good' rating. I know I will take heat on this, but it is how I see him.

On offense, there are only two reasons I didn't move West and Crowell up to average or even good. First...they were too inconsistant. Both of them were hit or miss on any given Sunday. Part of that was the center position...and part was the QB's inability to get teams out of 8 in the box...but GOOD RB's fight through that. Second...I didn't see consistant abiltiy to block and then move into the flats. I truly believe this is part of the reason screen passes were so few and far between. I blame a large part of that on the OC...as he obviously couldn't get even Ben Tate to do it...but it is still something a GOOD RB should be able to do.

As for going forward, if you put in Shelton at NT, that should help the Bryants and Taylor immensely. Rubin was just a mess for whatever reason. Add in a year for Williams/Gilbert/Desir and this D is going to have at least 7 or more in the good plus range.

On offense...Hartline was average on a DOWN YEAR...he gets his mojo back by being utilized correctly and he moves up to good. An extra year and better coaching should easily get at least one of Crow/West to that level. Bitonio and Mack have legit shots of being elite.
 
I broke it down a month ago methinks.

On offense:

QB-not good enough

RB-West, Crow are good to very good

WR-Hawkins, Austin and Gabriel are average to good, Benjy is below average but trending upward

OT-Joe Thomas is Elite, Mitch is average

OG-Bito and Greco are both very good

C-Mack is undeniably elite

On defense:

DT(NT) Phil Taylo is very good when healthy

DE-Desmond Bryant is very good and Armonty, Winn and Hughes are average to good

OLB-Kruger is very good and Mingo is good at what he is asked to do

ILB-Dansby is very good and Robertson is good to very good

CB-Joe Haden is elite. No doubt. Skrine is good.

S-Donte Whitner is very good. Gipson is ELITE.

Cheers,

Ziggy
 
I broke it down a month ago methinks.

Here's the reality:

On offense:

QB-not good enough

RB-West, Crow are good to very good West and Crowell slightly below average with potential to be average

WR-Hawkins, Austin and Gabriel are average to good, Benjy is below average but trending upward Austin likley won't be re-signed. Hawkins and Gabriel are roughly NFl slightly average as a duo compared to most NFL WR corps who have guys who can go deep and get in the end zone and go up and get balls.

OT-Joe Thomas is Elite, Mitch is average Ok overall, Thomas a little overrated.

OG-Bito and Greco are both very good Bitonio is very good, Greco roughly NFl avg. starter for his position

C-Mack is undeniably elite Mack is above average but not elite

On defense:

DT(NT) Phil Taylo is very good when healthy Phil Taylor is very average to below average but has talent and needs a kick in the rear end to expend some effort but has never had onethat kick in the rear he needs badly/B]

DE-Desmond Bryant is very good and Armonty, Winn and Hughes are average to good The DL is a total disaster. D. Bryant very good in about 2 games a year, MIA the rest of the year. Possibly the worst DL in all of football in 2014 and worst int he NFLagainstthe run for sure

OLB-Kruger is very good and Mingo is good at what he is asked to do Kruger is good and Mingo is a total bust as a first round pick, now restricted to covering receivers like a lower round pick with very limited ability to rush the passer and stop the run

ILB-Dansby is very good and Robertson is good to very good Dansby good and Robertson NFL average

CB-Joe Haden is elite. No doubt. Skrine is good. Joe haden is good and Skrine is gone baby

S-Donte Whitner is very good. Gipson is ELITE. Whitner and gipson are very good.

Cheers,

Ziggy



This is a team that lost 6 of its last 7 games in 2014. If Ziggy had been at Pearl Harbor, he would have said we gave the Japs a licking!
 
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This is a team that lost 6 of its last 7 games in 2014. If Ziggy had been at Pearl Harbor, he would have said we gave the Japs a licking!

I laughed, but low blow...

Lucky for me, from a personal and historical standpoint, I couldn 't care less about Pearl Fucking Harbour.
I 'm well aware of the circumstances, the numbers and the outcome.

Not sure how others(Murricans) feel about this one.

That being said, we lost to the Colts by a point.
We were beaten in both games that Johnny started.
We couldn 't muster any offense vs. Buffalo.
We battled vs Ravens.

Shit happens with a young team.

Cheers,

Ziggy
 
Lucky for me, from a personal and historical standpoint, I couldn 't care less about Pearl Fucking Harbour.
I 'm well aware of the circumstances, the numbers and the outcome.

Not sure how others(Murricans) feel about this one.

That being said, we lost to the Colts by a point.
We were beaten in both games that Johnny started.
We couldn 't muster any offense vs. Buffalo.
We battled vs Ravens.

Shit happens with a young team.

Cheers,

Ziggy

"Young" team? Dansby, 36, McCown, 36, Whitner, 31.
 
"Young" team? Dansby, 36, McCown, 36, Whitner, 31.

Pardon my language, but you 're talking out of your ass.

So, our players that are 30(even going to list FAs)

73 Thomas, Joe OL 6-6 312 30 9 Wisconsin
56 Dansby, Karlos LB 6-3 251 33 12 Auburn
McCown, Josh QB 6-4 218 35 13 Sam Houston State

19 Austin, Miles WR 6-2 215 30 10 Monmouth (N.J.)
4 Thigpen, Tyler QB 6-1 216 30 7 Coastal Carolina University
30 Leonhard, Jim DB 5-8 188 32 11 Wisconsin

So, Leonhard retired.
Thigpen probably won 't be back or will be a camp arm, having no impact on the roster whatsoever.
Miles Austin might or might not be back.

Whitner is listed at 29.

Joe Thomas is future HOFer and 30 years old, mature lineman years.

Karlos Dansby is 33.

McCown is 35. Hell he may be 36.
He will probably be our poor man 's Hassleback.

So that 's what 3 guys right now on the presumed 50 man roster?
And then let 's say we sign 5 more FAs?

That would be 8/53 "old" players.
That 's less than 20%.
That 's young in my book.

Not to mention that we probably plan to bring in at least 5 more rooks.

Cheers,

Ziggy
 
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