Watch How Quickly a Doomsday Narrative Can Change...

[Brownsfan1956]

Well Ocon since you asked.... It seems that speaking a dissenting opinion suddenly or to some imbeciles means one is not a fan of the team...thats just stupid. Voicing displeasure about the direction of the organization is fair game on this board. If you do not like what I, Nick or KoK have to say....block us that way the sun keeps shining in your world and reality can be avoided. Any other questions?

 

[The_QCT]

Real quick regarding those "vets" left over: they are trash. Those are the ones that needed gone, not Dansby and Whitner and like. Theres damn good reason Lewis snatched Dansby up after we stupidly cut the cord.

To your second point, it will play it but all I am saying is the writing is on the wall. The problem is there are several cut and dry blueprint formulas proven to work yet we have only tried ONE of them. Once. For half a season. This new regime is identical to every other regime not named Savage or Mangini. Its the same goddamn shit, cut everyone who isn't my guy and by god I will draft a whole new roster. I will give every other prior regime credit, they at LEAST had people with football knowledge attempting that chore. Us? We have a moron who knows how to build dirt cheap MLB Teams, a couple Lawyers and a HC who was fired for trading two first round picks on a beat 32 year old QB in Oakland who so far has proven himself a moron. Most legit HC since Davis? Dude Radio doesn't hold a jock to Davis, Crennel, Mancini or Chud and that's a fact.

Maybe instead of outsmarting themselves yet again the Browns should hire someone from a winning program with some fucking experience and let them build a winner here, no more first timers and failed retreads. I guess we will see if they learn their lesson in a season or two when Hasl shuffles the 3 Stooges out the door.

Stopped reading at that point. If you believe that sentence than you're either 1)Not paying any attention or 2)Clueless.

 

[The_QCT]

Kinda hard fornLewis to have his system set up when 1: He changed Defensive systems 3 times prior to 2008 and B: hired Zimmer to install his system in 2008 and piece together a new Defense. Let's not go rewriting history that that Defense was already elite and in place by 2008. It was patchwork with zero stars and the young players all came out in interviews talking about how helpful Jones and Williams were and how they stepped up everyone's game. It is what it is.

As for 2003 they had key veterans mixed in. They werent cutting everyone but rookies. In fact the opposite, they overpaid to get key vets spread into their team. The polar opposite of failures like Heckert, Radio, DeFucktard and Sashi.

Had Lewis been the HC in Cleveland, genius fans like you would have been bitching, complaining and whining after years 4-6; when after a playoff appearance in year 3, they proceeded to go on a 3 year decline with records of 8-8, 7-9, 4-11-1. One playoff appearance in 6 years and a 3 year decline to well below .500? Bye, bye Lewis. The Bengals never would have seen the last 4 seasons of 10+ wins. It's unfortunate (and not very bright) that the Browns owner has listened to the idiot fans over the years instead of allowing a process to play out. I truly hope this time the fans sound like Charlie Brown's teacher to Haslam and the FO, and they let their plan play out.

FTR - Lewis didn't turn the Bengals into a consistent winner until year 9 of his tenure. Could you imagine the Browns organization allowing a coach and FO to have 9 years to put together their roster and produce consistent results?

 

[OconRecon]

Well Ocon since you asked.... It seems that speaking a dissenting opinion suddenly or to some imbeciles means one is not a fan of the team...thats just stupid. Voicing displeasure about the direction of the organization is fair game on this board. If you do not like what I, Nick or KoK have to say....block us that way the sun keeps shining in your world and reality can be avoided. Any other questions?

Totally respect the opinions and agree it's an open forum. I get many Browns fans are down.

I just don't get if it's all so miserable, why spend time here?

I like all the varying viewpoints here and am not saying anyone shouldn't speak their mind.

All good man. Just different approaches.

 

[hammertime]

people are just plain angry with years and years of ineptitude.

so angry that only winning will convince them that the current regime is moving forward.


now how they voice their displeasure while waiting for the winning is another matter......

 

[PhilKosar]

people are just plain angry with years and years of ineptitude.

so angry that only winning will convince them that the current regime is moving forward.


now how they voice their displeasure while waiting for the winning is another matter......

Not sure that will even work in Cleveland... Look at the Cavs

 

[King of Kings]

I would have liked to see Dansby stick around but you can't be serious about being mad over Whitner. The guy made a living on whiffing.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree. I don't think our FO is full of morons and I don't know how you can say Jackson is worse than Crennel, Chud or Shurmur. I left Mangini out of there because I think if Holmgren hadn't wanted to hook his nephew up with a job, what Mangini was doing would have worked in the long run. Sorry if I'll take a guy who took the Oakland Raiders and got em to 8 - 8 in one year only to get fired because Reggie McKenzie wanted his guys over some of the other shit we've seen pass through Berea that got the label "Head Coach".

Hire someone from a winning program you say? So Jackson is not that guy? Cinci is not a winning program? You can wish all you want but until this team puts together winning seasons all we'll see here is first time HC's or guys getting another shot. That's the way it is. I think you better prepare to see this regime around for at least 4 years.

How many rings does Marvin Schottenlewis have as HC, again? Exactly. Like it or not we got an understudy from a guy who can't manage to win a playoff game. Awesome, Radio can get us to 8-8. BTW, about that Raiders thing, they were already a 7-9 team before Radio took over and blew two first rounders on a QB that got them from 7-9 to.... 8-8. Color me unimpressed.

As for wishing we could have had McDaniels and three fucking tines now and blew it three fucking times. Yeah let's pass over a guy with a handful of rings for some mush mouthed dumbfuck who thinks getting rid of all our talentt is the way to get good.

 

[King of Kings]

Had Lewis been the HC in Cleveland, genius fans like you would have been bitching, complaining and whining after years 4-6; when after a playoff appearance in year 3, they proceeded to go on a 3 year decline with records of 8-8, 7-9, 4-11-1. One playoff appearance in 6 years and a 3 year decline to well below .500? Bye, bye Lewis. The Bengals never would have seen the last 4 seasons of 10+ wins. It's unfortunate (and not very bright) that the Browns owner has listened to the idiot fans over the years instead of allowing a process to play out. I truly hope this time the fans sound like Charlie Brown's teacher to Haslam and the FO, and they let their plan play out.

FTR - Lewis didn't turn the Bengals into a consistent winner until year 9 of his tenure. Could you imagine the Browns organization allowing a coach and FO to have 9 years to put together their roster and produce consistent results?

Ignoring the massive amount of ignorance in your post, I am the guy who said the Browns needed to get a new GM and stick with RAC another season to see if 2007 was a fluke and see if he could win with players that actually fit the system, the gyt who said Lerner needed to give Mancini at a minimum 4 years before pulling the trigger if it didn't work, said Shurmer earned sticking around after improving in year two and said to stick with Pettine for a few more years. Nice try attempting to paint your bullshit narrative, though.

 

[Shep]

Reality: All the guys the Browns let go added up to 3-13. The one guy you can earnestly regret losing is Schwartz but you can then make the case that having one of the highest paid RTs in football isn't smart cap composition.

When an ILB and a run-stuffing safety get paid a lot of money... and both are over 30... and the team sucks at stopping the run and goes 3-13... you have to really WANT to not understand how they'd be cut by a new administration.

The Browns are starting over, clearly. They're building from a blueprint I suspect has been carefully constructed over a few thousand hours by some guys with really high IQs. That doesn't guarantee it will work but it isn't haphazard. They're clearing the roster of older, expensive players who didn't create wins... and refusing to pay anybody way above what he can return to the bottom line (including Browns and non-Browns, Benjamin and Marvin Jones for example).

A lot of guys drafted or signed as UDFAs by the Browns are gonna be on the field: Mingo, Orchard, Shelton, Armonty Bryant, K. Williams, Desir, Gaines, Cooper, Kirksey, Campbell, Gilbert, Thomas, Bitonio, Erving, Duke Johnson, Crowell, Josh Gordon (hopefully), and I'd guess four more from this next draft. That's 21.

After the 2017 draft, I get we'll have about 22 guys starting or in the regular rotation who've never played for anybody but the Browns. Built through the draft, including the QB.

And I bet we signed one or two "big" young free agents next offseason. Just a feeling about "The Plan."

Also won't be stunned if both McCown and even Joe Thomas are gone (if we can get a first round pick for the latter).

 

[Greythan]

I'm in between KoK's pessimism and Shep's optimism.

I don't have any grave problems with letting most of the guys leave that we've let leave; save Schwartz. However, I'm not dazzled by anything this new regime has done because so far they haven't done anything new or innovative. I don't believe there is a magic plan that they can hatch. What they appear to be implementing is nothing more than the traditional approach to fixing a failed franchise. The same catch-phrases are being tossed around as we've seen countless times before: build through the draft, don't overspend in FA, "its a multi-year" process, etc.

My reason for lacking great optimism is my concern regarding this inexperienced front office's ability to actually execute. I don't have any real reason to damn their ability as yet, but conversely there isn't much to hang one's hat on to believe they can.

As we've said every year for the past 17.... time will tell.

 

[Enigmatic Evil]

Let's at the very least keep it civil in here guys. No need for complete agreement but we don't need low brow pissing contests. Good discussion overall

 

[King of Kings]

I'm in between KoK's pessimism and Shep's optimism.

I don't have any grave problems with letting most of the guys leave that we've let leave; save Schwartz. However, I'm not dazzled by anything this new regime has done because so far they haven't done anything new or innovative. I don't believe there is a magic plan that they can hatch. What they appear to be implementing is nothing more than the traditional approach to fixing a failed franchise. The same catch-phrases are being tossed around as we've seen countless times before: build through the draft, don't overspend in FA, "its a multi-year" process, etc.

My reason for lacking great optimism is my concern regarding this inexperienced front office's ability to actually execute. I don't have any real reason to damn their ability as yet, but conversely there isn't much to hang one's hat on to believe they can.

As we've said every year for the past 17.... time will tell.

Aside from Shemp trying to suck them off because they are wannabes to the NFL....

I was excited. Go back and read and I was one of the very first on here promoting Radio Jackson and that if we could get him paired with a GM we would be in great shape. Mistakenly I believed he would go the proven time after time after time method of building a winner: Evaluate what you have and build around those pieces. If they are old but you can buy a few years or even a year you keep the player for that long and fix it once it becomes a hole. Ask Belicheat up in New England. Dude has made a career of taking older talent and milking that last little bit from them. But no, the Browns yet again have hired "the smart people" who have decided its not worth it to sign some really good FA's and keep young talent here that WAS drafted by us. Fuck this brainless "they cut guys from a 3-13 team" parroting bullshit. Everyone is quick to kiss Marvin Lewis ass all a sudden the fact is he took over a "garbage" 3-13 team and took largely the same roster 7-9, 8-8 and 11-5 his first three years.

When I was pimping Hue Jackson I thought he was one who gets it finally. I admit I was wrong. He is a pushover letting the supposed "high IQ" geek squad set the Browns back five more fucking years trying to play Moneyball in the NFL. The reality some refuse to see is the Offense was three or four pieces and one Off season from being a legit top 10 Offense. QB, WR, RB and Guard. The smart thing to do is keep Schwartz at all cost and try to keep Mack but if unable quickly replacing him with a FA. The smart move is use FA to make a statement and to fill some holes. The smart move is to see where the holes are on the D(Hint: They weren't Whitener and Dansby despite some people spinning bullshit) and fill some of those holes via FA. Fill the rest as best as possible with the draft and utilize what older talent you have to mentor some young draft picks. Fucking ask Pittsburgh, Cinci or Baltimore about that. It is how the good teams do it.

Stupidity is on day one of FA ignoring the holes at QB, RB, WR and Guard and in turn creating additional holes at C, RT and Safety. Stupidity is to then start slashing the few quality players on D creating yet more holes at LB and Safety. Stupidity is bringing in a glorified RB to pretend play QB on a team that now has a patch work Oline and a Defense now so bereft of ANY talent it won't be able to do shit to help your team.

Its a joke, a huge fucking joke and these clowns are in over their heads. That's not just me talking, REAL NFL personnel, people who HAVE been a part of rebuilds are laughing their asses off at the Browns. Really guys? So you're going to cut the head off everyone you deem old and just draft a bunch of 20 year olds and have them somehow mesh into a winning program? Won't work. Hasnt worked at any point in time of it being attempted. You have to have good vets to install your system and a will to win. Since these fucming morons don't understand that or can't fucking grasp that this isn't Baseball then Haslam needs to admit he fucked up YET AGAIN and get rid of them NOW before they trade JT for peanuts and have this team bereft of talent on a 0-16 Detroit Lions level.

Funny, articles are calling Goff the Tim Couch in a "good way." With the 3 Stooges trying to pretend they are NFL Execs it appears if we draft him he will be Tim Couched in the bad way, exactly like Couch.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm in between KoK's pessimism and Shep's optimism.

I don't have any grave problems with letting most of the guys leave that we've let leave; save Schwartz. However, I'm not dazzled by anything this new regime has done because so far they haven't done anything new or innovative. I don't believe there is a magic plan that they can hatch. What they appear to be implementing is nothing more than the traditional approach to fixing a failed franchise. The same catch-phrases are being tossed around as we've seen countless times before: build through the draft, don't overspend in FA, "its a multi-year" process, etc.

My reason for lacking great optimism is my concern regarding this inexperienced front office's ability to actually execute. I don't have any real reason to damn their ability as yet, but conversely there isn't much to hang one's hat on to believe they can.

As we've said every year for the past 17.... time will tell.

Aside from Shemp trying to suck them off because they are wannabes to the NFL....

I was excited. Go back and read and I was one of the very first on here promoting Radio Jackson and that if we could get him paired with a GM we would be in great shape. Mistakenly I believed he would go the proven time after time after time method of building a winner: Evaluate what you have and build around those pieces. If they are old but you can buy a few years or even a year you keep the player for that long and fix it once it becomes a hole. Ask Belicheat up in New England. Dude has made a career of taking older talent and milking that last little bit from them. But no, the Browns yet again have hired "the smart people" who have decided its not worth it to sign some really good FA's and keep young talent here that WAS drafted by us. Fuck this brainless "they cut guys from a 3-13 team" parroting bullshit. Everyone is quick to kiss Marvin Lewis ass all a sudden the fact is he took over a "garbage" 3-13 team and took largely the same roster 7-9, 8-8 and 11-5 his first three years.

When I was pimping Hue Jackson I thought he was one who gets it finally. I admit I was wrong. He is a pushover letting the supposed "high IQ" geek squad set the Browns back five more fucking years trying to play Moneyball in the NFL. The reality some refuse to see is the Offense was three or four pieces and one Off season from being a legit top 10 Offense. QB, WR, RB and Guard. The smart thing to do is keep Schwartz at all cost and try to keep Mack but if unable quickly replacing him with a FA. The smart move is use FA to make a statement and to fill some holes. The smart move is to see where the holes are on the D(Hint: They weren't Whitener and Dansby despite some people spinning bullshit) and fill some of those holes via FA. Fill the rest as best as possible with the draft and utilize what older talent you have to mentor some young draft picks. Fucking ask Pittsburgh, Cinci or Baltimore about that. It is how the good teams do it.

Stupidity is on day one of FA ignoring the holes at QB, RB, WR and Guard and in turn creating additional holes at C, RT and Safety. Stupidity is to then start slashing the few quality players on D creating yet more holes at LB and Safety. Stupidity is bringing in a glorified RB to pretend play QB on a team that now has a patch work Oline and a Defense now so bereft of ANY talent it won't be able to do shit to help your team.

Its a joke, a huge fucking joke and these clowns are in over their heads. That's not just me talking, REAL NFL personnel, people who HAVE been a part of rebuilds are laughing their asses off at the Browns. Really guys? So you're going to cut the head off everyone you deem old and just draft a bunch of 20 year olds and have them somehow mesh into a winning program? Won't work. Hasnt worked at any point in time of it being attempted. You have to have good vets to install your system and a will to win. Since these fucming morons don't understand that or can't fucking grasp that this isn't Baseball then Haslam needs to admit he fucked up YET AGAIN and get rid of them NOW before they trade JT for peanuts and have this team bereft of talent on a 0-16 Detroit Lions level.

Funny, articles are calling Goff the Tim Couch in a "good way." With the 3 Stooges trying to pretend they are NFL Execs it appears if we draft him he will be Tim Couched in the bad way, exactly like Couch.

 

[Bison]

The reality some refuse to see is the Offense was three or four pieces and one Off season from being a legit top 10 Offense.

 

[Brownsfan1956]

Aside from Shemp trying to suck them off because

Classic and well stated. The because is because its what old shemp does.

EE That was not low brow pissing just calling them as I (and many many others) see them.

 

[Greythan]

Yeah, this is about as complete a gutting as I can recall seeing anywhere. Curious if a similar culling can be recalled by anyone? If so, did it work?

They don't have much in the plus column thus far. Draft is their first opportunity and even then it will be subjective based on everyone's own individual reaction to the selections. The final 53 going into this upcoming season is the next major milestone for me. The one after that will be a review of the '16/'17 season after the last game has been played. Its a slog.

I hope they actually are, you know, that "smart".

 

[Shep]

I've never come to the board to say the sky is falling. When I'm not into the Browns, I generally just don't talk about them. Kind of like politics... I just start getting too bummed out so I turn to something else.

Sobo made a point: He said the Browns have let a lot of veterans walk, a few talented ones, but the cupboard isn't nearly as bare as some would have you think. Adidi (NFL.com) seemed impressed by Sashi and thinks the Browns have a plan and are committed to it. She also thinks the team wants even more draft picks and might trade down from #2. They want this to be a franchise defining draft.

One mock has the Browns taking Jared Goff at #2 and Treadwell at #32. If Josh Gordon also returns, the Browns are adding Goff, RG3, Gordon, and Treadwell to their battery in one offseason. In a QB-centric league. That would be an A+ by anybody's estimation.

The OL? We have quite a bit of talent there still and could add more in middle rounds. I think we'll field a very good OL, I like our backs, our TE is a Pro Bowler, and our QB and WR rooms would be improved by about 1,000%. There would be no way to say we aren't a way, WAY better team on offense. Not a chance.

I'm telling you: Narrative shift quickly in the offseason. If Gordon returns and the Browns are perceived to have a very good draft, people will be singing a different tune.

 

[Shep]

BTW, Adidi was saying this is Gilbert's golden opportunity, a new regime and a dinged up #1 corner. He's gonna get shit tons of practice time and almost certainly will play a lot of football this year. There's a case to be made that the last regime was way too punitive with players and personnel was "personal," as McMannon wrote.

I think this one's gonna put the kids on the field and let them sink or swim. No more high draft picks learning by watching older dudes go 3-13.

 

[OconRecon]

cupboard isn't nearly as bare as some would have you think.

Agree. Look at the starting lineup, pre-draft, BDU posted on this board.

Still don't get the articles talking about how most of this FO's moves make sense except Schwartz, who gave up more QB hurries and sacks than all other RT's. Doesn't sound like "elite RT money" was deserved.

 

[Greythan]

Still don't get the articles talking about how most of this FO's moves make sense except Schwartz, who gave up more QB hurries and sacks than all other RT's. Doesn't sound like "elite RT money" was deserved.

You've come back to this one several times, and you are quite aware there's another, legitimate side to that proverbial coin.

You're bordering on becoming a bit "AO like" with your fixation on one stat from one system while ignoring the grading of multiple analytic sites (PFF and FO's Muth) along with the most obvious counter: Andy Reid paid him.

 

[nickers]

Really? The Browns did? I don't see Josh McDaniels coaching us, I see a guy who looks and acts like a fucking retard who was fired from the goddamn Raiders shipping off all the talent the Browns had while bringing in garbage. This guy is the superior to Butch? RAC? Mangini? Please, he's a Shurmer level idiot in over his head.


Bre, for you and the other johnny come lately crybabies saying this isn't the forum for Nickers and I, we have literally been here since the beginning and I am not going anywhere. If you new guys don't like it take your fucking toys over to TBB because Nick and I here to stay.

I'm not down on the hiring of Hue as you are.. I actually like the attitude he brings.. No coach we have ever hired came in here talking about playoffs and super bowl quite like Hue has. Getting there is another story.. I do agree however , that we hired idiot bean counters.. While I wanted Bill Pollian. A man who actually knows how to put a winning product on the field.