OP
OP
Enigmatic Evil
Mr. Censor
I'm Josh McCown... I just need walk-throughs to get ready. Lah de dah!
...sorry, still salty
...sorry, still salty
MEGATHREADmania XXX
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PlaygroundLegend
Black Top Champion
I dont know man..
I feel like this is last year on replay.
By the time Johnny does get to take this team over. We will be in moral victory mode and any fire they have will be gone. He needs to be in while they're still playing for something.
I feel like this is last year on replay.
By the time Johnny does get to take this team over. We will be in moral victory mode and any fire they have will be gone. He needs to be in while they're still playing for something.
OP
OP
Enigmatic Evil
Mr. Censor
What do we have to play for? We are 2-5... IMO we could at best salvage a 6 win season, sure all the games are winnable but .500 seems out of the question at this point, the way we're playing. On one hand, you want to 'protect' Johnny but on the other you don't see the point in delaying his ascension. Come on PGL, you can't have it both ways.
PlaygroundLegend
Black Top Champion
I mean.. we have 9 games left..
If we can win 7 of 9...
thats a 9-7 record and we might make the playoffs.
Im saying give Johnny the chance to make the best out of a bad situation and take us there while we still have a chance!
I guess I want to win this weekend.. but have Josh perform to the point where Johnny would need to come in afterwards and take over.. if that makes sense.
If we can win 7 of 9...
thats a 9-7 record and we might make the playoffs.
Im saying give Johnny the chance to make the best out of a bad situation and take us there while we still have a chance!
I guess I want to win this weekend.. but have Josh perform to the point where Johnny would need to come in afterwards and take over.. if that makes sense.
Tangelo930
Die-hard Browns Fan
I completely understand what you are saying. That is a VERY specific set of circumstances to look forward to. And after hearing Pettine's press conference today, whether we like it or not, Johnny is never going to start for this team as long as they are in playoff contention AT ALL this season. Pettine wants McCown starting, period.
OconRecon
If you're juiceless, you're useless
Me too. We don't believe the current guy is the long term answer and we're not winning. It's just coming earlier this year.
You don't need big QB numbers. You just need to do it when it counts.
Here's a late game mid-field play. It's 3&6 with a few minutes to go. Come on Browns. Just a first down or two. Or heck, a bomb for a TD will do too. Done.
AttackOffense
Well-known member
I really wonder what kind of health McCown will have going in to Sunday's game. I don't feel good about that. But this is a winnable game. Arizona has a lot of good players but they play kinda flat at times. The danger is that the Arizona secondary is so athletic and the Browns receiving corps, except for Benjy, is pretty mediocre. Browns could win IF they find a running game.
AttackOffense
Well-known member
This is a lot like last year. Easy early schedule fools people and then once they start playing good teams over .500 it begins to unravel. The Browns' two wins are against teams with 1-5 records.
DawgsDefense
Active member
Manziel wont start while pettine coach of this team.
I bet manziel is traded probably due to his own demands or cut.
Id refuse to come back to cleveland if i was him in 2016 unless pettine gone and whoever coach is says manziel is the guy.
He needs to be the guy 100percent and get a franchise to build around him.
Pettine wants to run....no turnovers n play d.
Well we cant run.
We been turning over the ball and having tons of costly penalties.
And our defense is flat trash.
Pettines way.....hasnt worked.
Two years.... No playoffs. Gotten extremely worse. And the lockerroom hates him.
Players arent excited to play. Thwy dont believe mccown can win....
I bet manziel is traded probably due to his own demands or cut.
Id refuse to come back to cleveland if i was him in 2016 unless pettine gone and whoever coach is says manziel is the guy.
He needs to be the guy 100percent and get a franchise to build around him.
Pettine wants to run....no turnovers n play d.
Well we cant run.
We been turning over the ball and having tons of costly penalties.
And our defense is flat trash.
Pettines way.....hasnt worked.
Two years.... No playoffs. Gotten extremely worse. And the lockerroom hates him.
Players arent excited to play. Thwy dont believe mccown can win....
Gambler
Active member
You guys are good, some very good points. I'm repeating myself. I'm not a Manziel guy, but I don't understand why you wouldn't start him against zona. For one, Josh hasn't practiced and his shoulder is not going to be healed by Sunday. You're actually putting him in danger of being injured again. And this is the perfect opportunity to see what JM can do without benching Josh. (injury) You can't save JM to play against an easy team, there are no easy teams. My fear is that the Browns are going to pass on a good QB in the draft, and JM doesn't pan out because he didn't play enough to get a true evaluation.
Greythan
Yin & Yang
Listening to Pat Kirwan on NFL radio a couple hours ago. I generally like his takes and his resume is chock full of NFL experience.
A Cleveland caller dialed in and did an admirable job of expressing his frustration and that of the broader fan base. Years of ineptitude, losing, turnover, etc.
He posed the question about the QB position and his view that we should be starting Manziel this week and going forward. Kirwan (paraphrasing) said he's not starting because he's not better than the guy in front of him. He went on to say the QB position has been the least of the Browns problems this year.
That has been a pretty consistent take from actual NFL types from what I've read and heard when asked about this conundrum of ours.
I honestly think we have a syndrome as a fanbase. We're actually willing to concede the season (some, like BS, were willing to concede the last two) just to see if the QB we drafted might not be the answer. To give Boat some credit, that may have been "right" in the long run, but its a fantasy scenario. The 53 players on that roster, the dozens of coaches, the front office personnel, and everyone connected to football operations have one objective every year: field the best team possible.
The reality with Manziel is likely one of three options in my view:
1) He's really progressed. He's close to McCown and McCown's only "held him off" so to speak through his relatively strong play.
2) He's progressed but he's still a meaningful gap away from McCown. This gap is further magnified through McCown's solid play.
3) He's not the guy.
I think its ridiculous to assert that he's clearly demonstrated he's a better QB (a fourth option I guess). There's no real foundation on which to make this assessment and you'd have to explain why an entire professional football organization is purposefully playing a lesser talent. It really makes no sense at all.
So, if its scenario 1 we could see Manziel get the nod at any time. Maybe the staff has a timetable they are working on (they've alluded to as much). Maybe McCown's play has simply extended the waiting period. Maybe Pettine and Flip are making a mistake here. Certainly possible.
If its scenario 2 (my best guess), there's just no way to make the switch right now. Ask yourself how you would address the other 52 guys? "Gang, I'm going to put the younger guy with a potentially higher ceiling in. Its a long term thing for the organization. Yeah, I know some of you aren't getting any younger, but we're moving into developmental mode barring Johnny just miraculously being great from the AZ game on." I think this is the fundamental difference between us as fans and the organization itself: you can't run a football team this way. Its the ultimate meritocracy and that's preached by all 32 teams, all the time. You'd lose all credibility; you'd lose the "team".
Scenario 3 just sucks and I hope its not the reality. There are lots of NFL types that intimate this one though. Kirwan expressed his doubts about Manziel dating back to his draft class days.
A Cleveland caller dialed in and did an admirable job of expressing his frustration and that of the broader fan base. Years of ineptitude, losing, turnover, etc.
He posed the question about the QB position and his view that we should be starting Manziel this week and going forward. Kirwan (paraphrasing) said he's not starting because he's not better than the guy in front of him. He went on to say the QB position has been the least of the Browns problems this year.
That has been a pretty consistent take from actual NFL types from what I've read and heard when asked about this conundrum of ours.
I honestly think we have a syndrome as a fanbase. We're actually willing to concede the season (some, like BS, were willing to concede the last two) just to see if the QB we drafted might not be the answer. To give Boat some credit, that may have been "right" in the long run, but its a fantasy scenario. The 53 players on that roster, the dozens of coaches, the front office personnel, and everyone connected to football operations have one objective every year: field the best team possible.
The reality with Manziel is likely one of three options in my view:
1) He's really progressed. He's close to McCown and McCown's only "held him off" so to speak through his relatively strong play.
2) He's progressed but he's still a meaningful gap away from McCown. This gap is further magnified through McCown's solid play.
3) He's not the guy.
I think its ridiculous to assert that he's clearly demonstrated he's a better QB (a fourth option I guess). There's no real foundation on which to make this assessment and you'd have to explain why an entire professional football organization is purposefully playing a lesser talent. It really makes no sense at all.
So, if its scenario 1 we could see Manziel get the nod at any time. Maybe the staff has a timetable they are working on (they've alluded to as much). Maybe McCown's play has simply extended the waiting period. Maybe Pettine and Flip are making a mistake here. Certainly possible.
If its scenario 2 (my best guess), there's just no way to make the switch right now. Ask yourself how you would address the other 52 guys? "Gang, I'm going to put the younger guy with a potentially higher ceiling in. Its a long term thing for the organization. Yeah, I know some of you aren't getting any younger, but we're moving into developmental mode barring Johnny just miraculously being great from the AZ game on." I think this is the fundamental difference between us as fans and the organization itself: you can't run a football team this way. Its the ultimate meritocracy and that's preached by all 32 teams, all the time. You'd lose all credibility; you'd lose the "team".
Scenario 3 just sucks and I hope its not the reality. There are lots of NFL types that intimate this one though. Kirwan expressed his doubts about Manziel dating back to his draft class days.
Martin Eden
Well-known member
I disagree that the "objective" is to "field the best team possible."
The objective should be to build a winning franchise. To build a team that competes at the highest level. To build a team that wins division titles.
That said. . . I don't disagree completely with the way the Browns have so far handled JFF. McCown's play has hopefully rubbed a little wisdom into JFF's head. Perhaps it's better long-term for JFF to sit and watch. That remains to be seen.
But this idea that the Browns have to play McCown over Manziel because he's a little better is hogwash, that the other players will become depressed because their 2-5 team decides to see how far one of their 1st round draft picks from season before last has come.
The Browns are not going to make the playoffs with McCown at QB. McCown will never lead the Browns to a division title. Sometime this season, the Browns need to find out if JFF can be the man.
Let's face it, we beat the 1-5 Titans (barely) and the 1-6 Ravens (really barely).
Do you, Greythan, believe the team should play to get as many wins as possible, damn the future? Or do you believe the franchise needs to play with a focus on building for the future?
Tangelo930
Die-hard Browns Fan
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/10/johnny_manziel_heather_mcphee_nfl_lisa_friel.html
Interesting article by Mary Kay. Johnny met with NFL investigators tonight. Hopefully this process goes quickly and we can put it behind us. Let's hope Johnny keeps his nose clean and his name out of the tabloids for the rest of the season.
Interesting article by Mary Kay. Johnny met with NFL investigators tonight. Hopefully this process goes quickly and we can put it behind us. Let's hope Johnny keeps his nose clean and his name out of the tabloids for the rest of the season.
Greythan
Yin & Yang
This is an interesting question and I'd love to hear the unfiltered reaction to this by owners, GM's, and coaches.
I think its safe to say the objective each week is to win the game. What did Herm Edwards famously say? "We play to win the game." Most of us probably played sports at some points in our lives. I know for me personally I wanted to win every time out regardless of my position in the standings/rankings/etc.
Why is it hogwash? I think you'd have one hell of a time standing up in front of the other 52 saying "We want to see how far one of our 1st round picks can take us". Going back to my previous comments, I think any athlete worth his salt would want the best 10 guys around him.
Now, the specific point in time on a schedule probably plays into this quite heavily. We aren't even half way through the year yet. That's probably a factor whether you, I, or even the people inside the organization (players, coaches, etc) think the playoffs are out of the question. Again, as competitors the players are likely thinking they can clean up a few things and rip off a bunch of wins. I'm not saying its a correct or realistic view, but it certainly is the competitor's, the athlete's view. Don't you think?
Remember, I've been very consistent about my desire to see Manziel play. I want that franchise QB in a bad bad way.
That said I'm not going to castigate the organization for the decisions they've made thus far on the QB position. Quite frankly after seeing how well McCown has represented himself so far I have to give credit where credit is due. First, Farmer went out and got a steal in McCown as a gap starter/mentoring backup. Dude's 9th in passer rating with a suspect receiving corps and zero rushing offense. Second, Pettine steadfastly stood by the plan to play McCown even after Johnny electrified the field during his lone start. Third, Manziel looks much improved so credit back to the coaching staff seems logical.
They have maintained they have an approach they plan to stick to. So far its looked pretty damn good in terms of our QB room.
Into that headwind, I'm going to criticize them for not letting me see Manziel play just yet? Nope, not me. Now, if its week 12 and we're sitting at 2-9 with a McCown who's slipped to 15th or something in passer rating (vs moving up to 1st or some crazy shit); then I'd start getting vocal in questioning their "plan".
Not at this stage, however.
PlaygroundLegend
Black Top Champion
Once again I'd like to bring back the thought process after johnny won that game...
Johnny got to the point where the coaching staff had to have a discussion whether to roll with johnny the rest of the way.. or go back to josh.
If it was that close weeks ago that it needed a round table...
Why all of a sudden is it josh or bust?
I guess that's a question I would have for pettine
Johnny got to the point where the coaching staff had to have a discussion whether to roll with johnny the rest of the way.. or go back to josh.
If it was that close weeks ago that it needed a round table...
Why all of a sudden is it josh or bust?
I guess that's a question I would have for pettine
Martin Eden
Well-known member
Just because you start Manziel doesn't mean you're not trying to win the game.
It's hogwash because these are professional athletes. What "they" want individually comes second to what the "team" needs to do to get better. There shouldn't be a need to coddle these men. Your posts, to me, suggest you feel the players are fragile and the coaches and front office have to worry about the team not playing hard because McCown is a little better than JFF.
I haven't criticized the team for not playing Manziel. I said it might turn out that keeping him on the bench watching McCown is the best thing for him. I don't think it is, but only time will tell.
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Greythan
Yin & Yang
Martin, I'm not fighting with you on this topic. I'm just explaining my thought process as I interpret the actions coming out of Berea.
I think the bottom line here is that the staff must still feel there's a marked gap between McCown and Manziel at least in terms of the earlier part of the season when winning is job one. That and the undeniable fact that the QB position has been the least of our concerns with McCown's more than solid play. The entire team is probably killing themselves to get the defense and rushing offense figured out. If those had improved as had been the goal, we'd be sitting here with the 9th rated passer and a winning record.
It just isn't the QB.
I think the bottom line here is that the staff must still feel there's a marked gap between McCown and Manziel at least in terms of the earlier part of the season when winning is job one. That and the undeniable fact that the QB position has been the least of our concerns with McCown's more than solid play. The entire team is probably killing themselves to get the defense and rushing offense figured out. If those had improved as had been the goal, we'd be sitting here with the 9th rated passer and a winning record.
It just isn't the QB.
Martin Eden
Well-known member
I agree with you that the least of the Browns problem is the QB situation. And I'm sorry if you think I'm trying to fight with you.
I'm not as optimistic as you regarding the teams ability to "fix" what's wrong with the rest of the team this season and end up with a winning record.
Our two wins have come against two of the worst teams in the NFL.
I respect your opinion. Your posts are among the most soundly reasoned on this forum.
Do you believe the Browns have a good chance of improving their running game and defense this season? To the point they can win the division and make the playoffs?
brownsdownunder
Fuck Cancer! R.I.P Sean Webb
Because Josh threw something like 7 passes before Johnny got his shot. Josh has since returned and broken franchise records while putting together a string of impressive performances. Pettine understands what Grey and I keep saying - the problem with this team is not quarterback. In fact, the only position playing as well as McCown is LT with Joe Thomas.
What furthers that is Johnny didn't play exceptionally well. He got his ass kicked by New York, and Tennessee was a disaster with the exception of two (admittedly, wonderful) throws to a wide open Travis Benjamin. As I've pointed out before, Johnny has been wonderful on three throws - you take them away, he's right at the bottom of the league. He didn't play as well as people are romanticizing. He got his ass kicked one game, and held on in another under near ideal circumstances - defense destroyed Mariota and Benjamin went off on offense and special teams.
It's just the reality of the world that Josh McCown is currently a better quarterback by a noticeable difference, and that's a blessing in itself. The current "problem" is just typical Browns fans. We're not winning? Bench the quarterback, ignore the litany of other issues. I know you think it's cute now, but we both know if Johnny starts the rest of the season and we're not winning, people will be begging to draft a quarterback in the next draft EVEN if Johnny is playing at a high level - and you won't like it then.
To continue on that point, I pointed out that more often than not our defense is WORSE than what Johnny had to deal with in the Cinci game - sometimes dramatically. We've allowed fucking 400 yards of offense in more games than not. It's unfair to ask Johnny to deal with that, it's unfair to ask Josh to deal with that, but Josh is just handling it incredibly well.
It all comes back to the same point, though - We've not made the change at quarterback because we're getting very good quarterback play, and quarterback is not the reason we're losing games. It's just not a point that can be argued, in spite of how furiously the fan base wants to argue it.
brownsdownunder
Fuck Cancer! R.I.P Sean Webb
Took this from the twitter feed, from a radio station. Pettine also said trust factor with Manziel has "Improved dramatically."
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