MEGATHREADmania XXX

[DawgsDefense]

Haslam needs to fire pettine before bye week. Flip needs to have full roam the rest of season and see what he can do. If team responds and plays well for him.... Id let him try it. If its too much and he cant handle it then u know he still oc for lil while.

 

[Brownsfan]

The first half of the AZ game was fun to watch too. The second half sucked.

The first half of the Cincy gamew as fund to watch. The second half sucked. (You call zero first downs through 1.5 quarters and an imploding defense "watchable" by comparison?)


Why likelihood? Interesting choice of words. I'd like to believe that but I have no evidence to term it a "likelihood" (i.e., probable) especially when looking at the long list of failed QB prospects in our franchise and across the league. Manziel's probably handicapped by the experts as having a likelihood to not end up a franchise leading QB at this point. Jury is out either way.

Of course it isn't a likelihood in that you can prove the outcome is "probable". Its just your opinion, which is fine. Its also my hope so I get that.

Point? Twiz was simply reacting to this notion that watching us lose, whether it be with old QB or young QB, is just inferior to winning no matter how it looks. Or at least that's how I interpreted it.

Well, in regard to the second half of the Cincinnati game, the 12 yard run that became a 11 yard run was exciting at the time. However, the dropped passes that should have been first downs kind of left a bad taste, I will admit.

Maybe I am just paranoid, but you seem to be trolling me with regard to what I consider a rather limited statement: "And with Manziel, there is at least the likelihood of future improvement with added experience that might conceivably lead to future winning."

Seriously, Grey, you don't think it is conceivable that with added experience Manziel is likely to improve which in turn might lead to more winning in the future?

(Compare that likelihood with the likelihood of McCown improving with additional experience and improving our chances of winning 4 or 5 years from now.)

 

[twizbuck]

Then perhaps you should explain your point. For reference here is the conversation



I think I have understood your point. In the past you have mentioned that you would rather win in a boring fashion that to lose in an exciting fashion (or words to that effect).

I do not disagree with the sentiment. Indeed, I have acknowledged that winning in whatever fashion leads to excitement and fun. I would have no objection to boring play if it was winning.

But 1-6 is not winning. Neither is 1-1, of course, but at least the first half of the Cincinnati game was fun to watch. Even most of the second half was watchable.

And with Manziel, there is at least the likelihood of future improvement with added experience that might conceivably lead to future winning.

With McCown, you are doing nothing to make the future better.

Again, now, what was your point?

Who pissed in your Wheaties? That's still not my point. You get partial credit. Grey got it though.

 

[Brownsfan]

Who pissed in your Wheaties? That's still not my point. You get partial credit. Grey got it though.

So winning is preferable to losing regardless of how it is done. My question is: how do you propose to get the winning done?

I think we have a better chance with Manziel under center (or in the shotgun) than McCown. We have now completed the relatively easy part of the schedule and of games McCown has started, we are 1-6.

And you propose more of the same?

What was that thing that Einstein said about insanity?

 

[DawgsDefense]

Manziel in shotgun no huddle.

Telfair needs activated. Winston.

Get our young guys in the game

 

[Shep]

I hate to keep being reductive but a 2-7 team starting a 37-year-old bridge starter over their 22-year-old, healthy first round pick who's shown plenty to like this year is a non-starter. No way to spin it as logical or purposeful.

There's just no downside to starting Manziel the rest of the season. Right now we have the second pick. If Manziel isn't the guy, they need to draft their guy. McCown isn't really part of the equation in any long-term sense.

Do they know Manziel is or isn't the guy? Absolutely not. They simply do not anymore than I do or you do or we do. We know he's shown flashes starting with the O&B scrimmage through some part-time duty, his start/win, and then a good half last Sunday. That's more than most rookie-age QBs give you to go on. It's a no-brainer. Not even a quandary of the most minute versions.

I'm not even saying I know he'll be awesome. I don't. But you have to find out. If we were 4-5? Different story, although not a super interesting one. But we're 2-7. We're non-contenders looking to figure out our future. It ain't complicated.

 

[OconRecon]

(not sure this has been posted yet)

TIME TO GIVE JOHNNY MANZIEL THE KEYS TO THE OFFENSE
NATHAN JAHNKE - PFF

While there were certainly flaws in his performance, Manziel played the best game of his short career on Thursday.


On Thursday night, the Browns lost to the Bengals in convincing fashion, giving Cleveland their fourth straight loss and a 2-7 record. It was just the third time that Johnny Manziel both started and finished a game, and despite the raw numbers along with the loss, it was Manziel’s best start of his career.

He only completed 45.5 percent of his passes, but he was accurate on two thirds of his throws. Five of his incompletions were drops, and another three passes were thrown away. Had those dropped passes been caught, he would have had another 59 yards on his passing total from yards in the air alone, as well as any potential yards after the catch.

He also had very few inaccurate throws, with most of them coming late in the game, where he tried to force things in order to make more plays. Typically, they were thrown in front of the receiver or under-thrown, but rarely in danger of turning the ball over.

Where Manziel was most successful is when he could get the ball out quickly. On passes where the time to throw was 2.3 seconds or faster, he completed 9-of-12 passes for 75 yards, with one of those three incompletions being a drop. Being down early in a game doesn’t always allow for quick passes, but if the Browns can keep games closer, Manziel could find more success with that quick passing game.

On top of doing an average job throwing the ball, he had four quarterback scrambles for 31 yards. With this kind of play, Manziel won’t be the reason the Browns win games—but he also won’t be the reason Cleveland loses.

At a 2-7 record, the Browns chances of making the playoffs are minimal. If Cleveland starts Manziel and he plays worse than McCown, they will keep losing, and know they need to find another quarterback ASAP. If Manziel is better, the Browns can start building around him for the future. Either way, even if McCown is healthy, it’s probably time to see what Manziel can do.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/bl...-give-johnny-manziel-the-keys-to-the-offense/

 

[AttackOffense]

(not sure this has been posted yet)

TIME TO GIVE JOHNNY MANZIEL THE KEYS TO THE OFFENSE
NATHAN JAHNKE - PFF

While there were certainly flaws in his performance, Manziel played the best game of his short career on Thursday.


On Thursday night, the Browns lost to the Bengals in convincing fashion, giving Cleveland their fourth straight loss and a 2-7 record. It was just the third time that Johnny Manziel both started and finished a game, and despite the raw numbers along with the loss, it was Manziel’s best start of his career.

He only completed 45.5 percent of his passes, but he was accurate on two thirds of his throws. Five of his incompletions were drops, and another three passes were thrown away. Had those dropped passes been caught, he would have had another 59 yards on his passing total from yards in the air alone, as well as any potential yards after the catch.

He also had very few inaccurate throws, with most of them coming late in the game, where he tried to force things in order to make more plays. Typically, they were thrown in front of the receiver or under-thrown, but rarely in danger of turning the ball over.

Where Manziel was most successful is when he could get the ball out quickly. On passes where the time to throw was 2.3 seconds or faster, he completed 9-of-12 passes for 75 yards, with one of those three incompletions being a drop. Being down early in a game doesn’t always allow for quick passes, but if the Browns can keep games closer, Manziel could find more success with that quick passing game.

On top of doing an average job throwing the ball, he had four quarterback scrambles for 31 yards. With this kind of play, Manziel won’t be the reason the Browns win games—but he also won’t be the reason Cleveland loses.

At a 2-7 record, the Browns chances of making the playoffs are minimal. If Cleveland starts Manziel and he plays worse than McCown, they will keep losing, and know they need to find another quarterback ASAP. If Manziel is better, the Browns can start building around him for the future. Either way, even if McCown is healthy, it’s probably time to see what Manziel can do.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/bl...-give-johnny-manziel-the-keys-to-the-offense/

I agree. The big trepidation, of course, is that the kid has very little to support him, and it's truly difficult to judge him like, say, Derek Carr, who has Cooper and Crabtree to throw to.

 

[twizbuck]

So winning is preferable to losing regardless of how it is done. My question is: how do you propose to get the winning done?

I think we have a better chance with Manziel under center (or in the shotgun) than McCown. We have now completed the relatively easy part of the schedule and of games McCown has started, we are 1-6.

And you propose more of the same?

What was that thing that Einstein said about insanity?

I fucking give up. There's no point in trying to explain this anymore. You're stuck in some sort of defensive bunker you can't see over.

 

[threesheets]

Yeah, I watched that PIT v OAK game and it is night and day; the amount of separation their receivers get vs ours is huge. Carr never has to scramble and can camp in the pocket because he's always got 1 or more options open. Nobody was within 20 feet of Cooper on his TD.

As far as the argument on starting McCown v Manziel the rest of the year; in my mind this shouldn't even be an argument. Everybody knew going into the season (except for Pettine apparently) that the greatest thing that could happen besides a playoff run was to identify our FQB moving forward. Imo we already have him in Manziel. All he needs now is experience and appears far enough along to take the reigns in getting more. In fact, he looked that way to me in preseason too. Yeah, he doesn't have much to work with (they don't even hardly attempt to run the ball anymore), but he can still learn more by at least getting starter reps in practice and facing NFL game day speed.

Starting QB qualities:

Arm strength

Accuracy

Intelligence - learn and execute playbook (applied)

Extra Credit qualities:

Running ability, not necessarily speed but scrambling to avoid the rush. Bonus if this skill is good enough to buy receivers more time to get open.

Throwing on the run with accuracy. Counting the Gabriel drop, he had two TDs running both to his right and left in the 1st half.

Good deep ball - strength and accuracy

BONUS:

Killer instinct, example TEN game: instead of going safe for the 1st down, goes for the kill and game set and match with the bomb to Benjamin. Highly competitive - this one should be a no brainer for any player stepping onto an NFL field but surprisingly I can identify multiples players on this team that are lacking this quality.

Creative and can improvise on a dime.

I cannot imagine how good he will be both in and out of the pocket once he gets a lot of playing time. I watch Aaron Rodgers a lot - how his feet are always moving, sliding around the pocket. This allows him to see more and get better throwing lanes in addition to buying more time for his receivers. I see a bit of that in Manziel already - especially in the TEN game he started


Negatives:

He's not 6'5" tall.


Somebody wake me up when the organization has figured out what they have here and start addressing the big problems that do exist.

 

[King of Kings]

I hate to keep being reductive but a 2-7 team starting a 37-year-old bridge starter over their 22-year-old, healthy first round pick who's shown plenty to like this year is a non-starter. No way to spin it as logical or purposeful.

There's just no downside to starting Manziel the rest of the season. Right now we have the second pick. If Manziel isn't the guy, they need to draft their guy. McCown isn't really part of the equation in any long-term sense.

Do they know Manziel is or isn't the guy? Absolutely not. They simply do not anymore than I do or you do or we do. We know he's shown flashes starting with the O&B scrimmage through some part-time duty, his start/win, and then a good half last Sunday. That's more than most rookie-age QBs give you to go on. It's a no-brainer. Not even a quandary of the most minute versions.

I'm not even saying I know he'll be awesome. I don't. But you have to find out. If we were 4-5? Different story, although not a super interesting one. But we're 2-7. We're non-contenders looking to figure out our future. It ain't complicated.

Jesus H. Tapdancing Christ even Shep gets it. There is zero to gain and zero point to sitting Manziel at this time of the season. We're heading into year three and we need, NEED to see if he's worth all these headaches and can even be the guy going forward. Put him in and let's see if he sinks or swims.

 

[Greythan]

Well, in regard to the second half of the Cincinnati game, the 12 yard run that became a 11 yard run was exciting at the time. However, the dropped passes that should have been first downs kind of left a bad taste, I will admit.

Maybe I am just paranoid, but you seem to be trolling me with regard to what I consider a rather limited statement: "And with Manziel, there is at least the likelihood of future improvement with added experience that might conceivably lead to future winning."

Seriously, Grey, you don't think it is conceivable that with added experience Manziel is likely to improve which in turn might lead to more winning in the future?

(Compare that likelihood with the likelihood of McCown improving with additional experience and improving our chances of winning 4 or 5 years from now.)

I am trolling you a bit on that point Cliff and its disingenuous from the perspective that I hope you are right!

However, I'm doing it in large part because of the underlying theme that seems to castigate everyone but Manziel for Manziel's lack of establishing himself thus far. I'm concerned about Farmer/Pettine as well but the Manziel issue isn't central to it for me considering Manziel's own role (my view). I'm much more concerned about the defense, our running game, and our overall talent than I am the handling of Manziel and our passing offense in general (which has been the lone bright spot ironically).

 

[Greythan]

So then either the staff is a) a fraud for (insert your favorite reason/theory here) or b) there's more to the story with Manziel. Are there any other options?

The second option seems to be dismissed outright for some reason. Why's that?

 

[King of Kings]

So then either the staff is a) a fraud for (insert your favorite reason/theory here) or b) there's more to the story with Manziel. Are there any other options?

The second option seems to be dismissed outright for some reason. Why's that?

I don't know that it is dismissed. For me I have my own theory on the whole Browns set up and culture that boils down to I believe there is a power struggle between Pettine and Farmer and it really wouldn't matter if Manziel wasn't a mentally retarded alcoholic fuckup, I think he is a Farmer guy and Pettine doesn't want him. Personally I don't like Manziel either, but I do think we should see what IS actually there to help out the new staff next year. So THEY know what THEY have to work with. What's the worst that can happen, he performs, wins and saves Pettines job.

 

[Brownsfan]

I fucking give up. There's no point in trying to explain this anymore. You're stuck in some sort of defensive bunker you can't see over.

Good. It is about time you gave up.

Look, I am aware that you don't like Manziel. You have said so at least a dozen times. You like a different style of play. I understand that. But regardless of your style preference, I think we need to find out if Manziel can be a winner for us. I think he has a chance. Or, more to the point, I think we have a chance with Manziel.

 

[Brownsfan]

I am trolling you a bit on that point Cliff and its disingenuous from the perspective that I hope you are right!

However, I'm doing it in large part because of the underlying theme that seems to castigate everyone but Manziel for Manziel's lack of establishing himself thus far. I'm concerned about Farmer/Pettine as well but the Manziel issue isn't central to it for me considering Manziel's own role (my view). I'm much more concerned about the defense, our running game, and our overall talent than I am the handling of Manziel and our passing offense in general (which has been the lone bright spot ironically).

I am aware that that is your point of view. I have a different point of view. I got involved with the blame game a little late. It was already decided by a number of you guys that the 2014 failure was all on Manziel before I ever raised an objection and pointed out that there was another possibility. I have never insisted that Manziel was blameless. But I refuse to agree that he alone was to blame for the failure.

I also refuse to believe that he alone sought "help." I think that there was a lot of moving parts there. I believe that mismanagement was at least part of the reason for the failure last year and I also strongly suspect that the Browns had a hand in the rehab.

And, right now, I think Manziel is as ready as he is going to be and it is time they threw him out there to sink or swim.

And as for the other parts such as the running game and defense, I contend that solving the running game and the defense is easy compared to finding and developing a quarterback for the long term.

 

[hammertime]

At this point is there anyone left who's left that thinks starting Manzeil isn't a better option??

Playing McCown is playing for a higher draft pick. Playing JM is gambling that he's not a winner either and your draft slt will be the same as with McCown. BUT you'll keep the fanbase interested in the second half of this season while determining if JM has any chance of succeeding.

I say play Manzeil but unless he blows away the completion we move on.

 

[OconRecon]

Well, looks like it's back to McCown:


<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Browns?src=hash">#Browns</a> Pettine said if McCown is healthy and ready to go, he'll start vs. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Steelers?src=hash">#Steelers</a></p>— Mary Kay Cabot (@MaryKayCabot) <a href="https://twitter.com/MaryKayCabot/status/664125828175945728">November 10, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Why is Josh McCown still the unquestioned starter in Cleveland? <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Browns?src=hash">#Browns</a> coach Mike Pettine explained <a href="https://t.co/yA0LtvAHsH">pic.twitter.com/yA0LtvAHsH</a></p>— Ian Rapoport (@RapSheet) <a href="https://twitter.com/RapSheet/status/664131944049991681">November 10, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Tangelo930]

:turd:

 

[OconRecon]

I'm wondering if Pett is officially feeling the heat, meaning he's not thinking about the 2016 draft or the 2016 team - he's thinking about only the upcoming Sunday. Figuring out next year's QB situation is not something he's going to worry about.


I'm also wondering if he thinks Manziel will implode on his own, and perhaps McCown is the bridge starter until 2016's first rounder can take over.