KJP
Well-known member
Until they do, this is forum all we have. And that's the point of forums like this.
Sounds like by mid-July we'll all be hating each other and be ready for camp -- like we always do.
The Offensive Line
- Thread starter OconRecon
- Start date
Until they do, this is forum all we have. And that's the point of forums like this.
Sounds like by mid-July we'll all be hating each other and be ready for camp -- like we always do.
PhilKosar
Keyboard Warrior Asshole
Until they do, this is forum all we have. And that's the point of forums like this.
Sounds like by mid-July we'll all be hating each other and be ready for camp -- like we always do.
Fair enough but if the Alvin Bailey vs. Austin Pasztor battle is the reason we devolve into Johnny vs. Hoyer 2.0 - life is much better than past years...
Brownsfan
Continuity Please!
You know, it is funny. One might think that a guy who was good enough to play in 15 games and start 3 for the No. 4 offense in the league last year might have a chance with the No. 25 offense (based on total offense).
Here's where we have been the last three years:
2013 17th, 5430 total yards (339.4 per game)
2014 23rd, 5193 total yards (324.6 per game)
2015 25th, 5311 total yards (331.9 per game)
According to Hue, "He has a lot of the characteristics that we want in a tackle, and he’s done a good job thus far. He’s a tough guy and wants to do well. So we’re going to give him an opportunity."
And he just happens to be from Broken Arrow, Oklahoma. That alone is enough to endear him to me. I am glad he is with the Browns.
Greythan
Yin & Yang
Bottom line on all these position group discussions is that we are talking about a metric ton of guys who haven't proven they can play at the NFL level. Or, if they had some success, they haven't been able to prove they can consistently play. Its very likely to be a long, slog of a campaign as Hue and Co weed through the guys to find those who can play and start building towards next year.
King of Kings
Back In Back
According to this Coaching staff there's nothing wrong with Gilbert, it was the previous regimes fault he is a lazy entitled loser, that he gets a fully clean slate with these guys. Erving is just plain garbage and not in Macks league on Macks worst day. Too bad those clean slates and positive words didn't apply to class acts and leaders like Mack and Schwartz... Hartline for that matter.
Too bad they couldn't get any takers for Joe Thomas during the draft to continue Huey P's purge, they certainly took it down to the wire trying to unload that guy. Gotta love this staff, in their eyes the talent is Erving, Mingo, Pryor, Gilbert and Gordon. Guys like Thomas, Mack, Schwartz, Hartline (noticing a trend here), Dansy, Whitner, Benjamin ect are all scrubs.....
Uhhh yeah......
nickers
Nick@Nite
Shep
Well-known member
It's just not reasonable to say that virtually every scouting service, every NFL board, every draftnick had Cam Erving as a legit first round center (doesn't happen every year)... and now he sucks. Because he did it against D3? Nope. Power 5 conference.
Now everybody around says he's stronger, working his ass off, and knows what he's doing. So where's the real anomaly here? Looks like last year, when a rookie was asked to learn five positions and never played the one he was drafted for. And when he saw extended playing time, he got better game by game, not worse.
Arrow is up, no doubt.
Look, last year the Rams drafted like four OL because they were short on them. It paid off. They all played and either 2 or 3 are now starters. They ran and protected well. It's what you do when you need a few linemen, you go out and draft them. None of those Rams guys were high draft picks, BTW. The Browns have three legit starters back from last year and a first round pick stepping in at center. So they went out and signed Bailey, kept Pasztor, drafted Coleman and Drango, and signed priority UDFA Matthews.
It's what you do. And they did it right. No reason for our line to be anything but really good.
Now everybody around says he's stronger, working his ass off, and knows what he's doing. So where's the real anomaly here? Looks like last year, when a rookie was asked to learn five positions and never played the one he was drafted for. And when he saw extended playing time, he got better game by game, not worse.
Arrow is up, no doubt.
Look, last year the Rams drafted like four OL because they were short on them. It paid off. They all played and either 2 or 3 are now starters. They ran and protected well. It's what you do when you need a few linemen, you go out and draft them. None of those Rams guys were high draft picks, BTW. The Browns have three legit starters back from last year and a first round pick stepping in at center. So they went out and signed Bailey, kept Pasztor, drafted Coleman and Drango, and signed priority UDFA Matthews.
It's what you do. And they did it right. No reason for our line to be anything but really good.
Shep
Well-known member
Yeah, like Sobo said, still don't get how Drango goes into the season projected as a 2nd and perhaps even 1st round pick, plays really well... and falls to the 5th round.
The draft can be just super weird. Cody Kessler went about where he was expected to go when his senior year began, maybe one round lower. But he was "a reach."
Huh? Did he stop being good last year? It's nutty.
The draft can be just super weird. Cody Kessler went about where he was expected to go when his senior year began, maybe one round lower. But he was "a reach."
Huh? Did he stop being good last year? It's nutty.
brownsdownunder
Fuck Cancer! R.I.P Sean Webb
I'm really interested in Bailey. For him to be plugged in at RT so quickly, he must be showing something impressive. Coleman seemed far more likely - relatively early draft pick who fell as far as he did because a cancer scare had him sitting out two years, more than his play. He's a specimen, to be sure, just outright big, strong and nasty. His ability to hold off pass rushing pressure is the only question, but it's hard to imagine his technique and process doesn't quickly evolve at the NFL level. He still remains an incredible option in terms of run blocking, and that's coming on a team that openly admits we're going to be a run-first team.
Perhaps, for now, it's simply the safe bet to give the veteran the nod while waiting to see if the rookie can catch up or overtake. Perhaps Drango, known for his incredible run blocking, is the likely option to get a chance at RG - And the team is wary of starting a 2nd year C, rookie RG AND rookie RT.
I can't help but wonder if Bailey is just a fucking gem, though. Maybe the guy is proving he belongs. He was an undrafted guy but many thought he could go mid-round. He's since had several years of NFL development, including winning the big game with the Seahawks, which was nothing if not a line that ran the football. He's similar to Coleman in terms of having great measurables and undeniable strength, merely needing to refine technique. He's like one of those college fat fucks that wins on strength but hits the next level and quickly learns that strength isn't enough in the NFL. Perhaps his development is starting to pay off.
Of course, this is all irrelevant. Camp and preseason holds the answers.
Perhaps, for now, it's simply the safe bet to give the veteran the nod while waiting to see if the rookie can catch up or overtake. Perhaps Drango, known for his incredible run blocking, is the likely option to get a chance at RG - And the team is wary of starting a 2nd year C, rookie RG AND rookie RT.
I can't help but wonder if Bailey is just a fucking gem, though. Maybe the guy is proving he belongs. He was an undrafted guy but many thought he could go mid-round. He's since had several years of NFL development, including winning the big game with the Seahawks, which was nothing if not a line that ran the football. He's similar to Coleman in terms of having great measurables and undeniable strength, merely needing to refine technique. He's like one of those college fat fucks that wins on strength but hits the next level and quickly learns that strength isn't enough in the NFL. Perhaps his development is starting to pay off.
Of course, this is all irrelevant. Camp and preseason holds the answers.
King of Kings
Back In Back
Yes because clearly it is JT, Mack, Schwartz, Hartline Dansby ect ect responsible for all the garbage surrounding them not performing. Garbage that your new found hero's keep around. What in the fuck have Mingo, Gilbert, Erving ect fucking won in the NFL? Yeah that's what I fucking thought.
nickers
Nick@Nite
So.. your saying JT is responsible for garbage acquistions now.. Brilliant.. Calling the games best tackle a garbage talent elvaluator,, you
ve lost youre marbles Man.. .. LOL!
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plumcrazy73
Member
^ they won about the same as every other Brown on the team
Shep
Well-known member
KoK, it's a valid point when it comes to cap dissemination: It's not that the high priced and highly drafted line "made us lose." It's that they also didn't make us win. And studying a lot of really good teams, they don't seem to see the need for drafting OL high across the board.
Like I said, the Rams had a great running game and very few sacks last year after drafting 4 OL, none in round 1 (obviously, Gurley). They went 7-9 with no QB (or WRs), went and got the QB.
Browns were aggressive in replacing the couple of guys who left. Adding Bailey, Coleman, and Drango while keeping Pasztor was aggressive.
Like I said, the Rams had a great running game and very few sacks last year after drafting 4 OL, none in round 1 (obviously, Gurley). They went 7-9 with no QB (or WRs), went and got the QB.
Browns were aggressive in replacing the couple of guys who left. Adding Bailey, Coleman, and Drango while keeping Pasztor was aggressive.
OP
OP
OconRecon
If you're juiceless, you're useless
Cleveland Browns: A rebuilt offensive line in 2016
Find out why and how the Cleveland Browns overhauled one of the league’s best offensive lines.
A fantastic read on how the O line story unfolded from the end of last season to today: :link:
Basic points (i.e. spoilers) if you don't have time to read it:
Find out why and how the Cleveland Browns overhauled one of the league’s best offensive lines.
A fantastic read on how the O line story unfolded from the end of last season to today: :link:
Basic points (i.e. spoilers) if you don't have time to read it:
- Flip brought a power run scheme with a vertical passing offense. It's the style he wanted to run. He was out voted and the ZBS continued (thanks Ray and Pett) and he was left to try to make it work (that is vertical passing + ZBS running).
- It is known that a vertical passing game and ZBS run game don't work together. Others have tried (including the creator of the ZBS), and have failed. It didn't work for the Browns either.
- The mix of ZBS run formations + vertical pass formations made is super easy to tell what the Browns were going to do on every play. We were telegraphing every play, pre-snap.
- The Browns implemented some power scheme at the end of the season, which is when Crow broke through behind Pasztor for some bigger gains and TD's.
- ZBS needs quick, smart, small-ish O lineman. That's last year's O line. It needed to be partially rebuilt to run Hue's power scheme.
- Mack and Schwartz will likely do well in Atlanta and KC, because they are ZBS teams. This doesn't mean the Browns should have kept them and they would have fit 2016's plan.
- Hue needs big-lineman-road-graders for his power scheme offense.
- JT still fits for the power game.
- Bitonio is ideal for it at LG as he's strong enough to power block, yet agile enough to pull down the line.
- Cam was a power scheme center in college. It's where he made his mark.
- Pasztor flashed/shined as a road-grader guard last year. Drango is really built more for the RG spot than RT with his shorter arms. They'll compete to start. Greco is still a serviceable option.
- Coleman was a specific draft choice because it's felt he will fit the power run scheme. Gus Malzahn likes the power run game at Auburn. Bailey and the vets will compete for this spot as well.
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DawgFan
In NFL HELL since 1964
I swear...I have been saying this for MONTHS!!! Pasztor and Erving are POWER lineman...and they are going to do just fine in this new scheme. And for those that keep ripping Erving for lack of power...I again go to the point of when you are out of position, out of scheme, and haven't had the single position to concentrate on to learn the blocking...even the strongest guy in the world is going to get pancaked because he is not going to be in the correct position, is going to be off balance, and hesitant...against a guy that KNOWS what is coming.
I like his chances in a power scheme at Center. I like Pasztor at RT if one of the young guys doesn't step up. I like a lot of this rebuild OL due to the scheme fit and the coaching.