King of Kings
Back In Back
Sure he does. There is no shortage of centers working out at the local gym who are stronger, quicker and all around better than fucking Scam "The Ragdoll" Erving, who just might be the worst lineman in the entire NFL.
The Offensive Line
- Thread starter OconRecon
- Start date
brownsdownunder
Fuck Cancer! R.I.P Sean Webb
The "anyone from a local gym" line is hilarious but it's just not true. Finding someone, at this stage of the year, who can come in and learn the plays while upgrading the position? It's not happening. It's just spinning wheels.
OP
OP
OconRecon
If you're juiceless, you're useless
After the Jets game, over at PFF:
JT - still top tier
Greco - moving up and a top-third guard, somewhat knocking on the Bitonio door (grade wise)
Cam - still dead last
Bailey - grading as "below avg", just above Shawn Lavaou. Not a good thing.
Drango - above Bailey in the middle-third. Pass blocking ahead of run blocking so far.
Pasztor - continues to move up, and out of 70 ranked rated tackles, he's now 5 away from Mitchell Schwartz. Hmmmm. He's outranking Ereck Flowers, Jake Matthews, Ronnie Stanley, and Russell Okong.
JT - still top tier
Greco - moving up and a top-third guard, somewhat knocking on the Bitonio door (grade wise)
Cam - still dead last
Bailey - grading as "below avg", just above Shawn Lavaou. Not a good thing.
Drango - above Bailey in the middle-third. Pass blocking ahead of run blocking so far.
Pasztor - continues to move up, and out of 70 ranked rated tackles, he's now 5 away from Mitchell Schwartz. Hmmmm. He's outranking Ereck Flowers, Jake Matthews, Ronnie Stanley, and Russell Okong.
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brownsdownunder
Fuck Cancer! R.I.P Sean Webb
Man, I fucking hate PFF today.
If anyone can throw on some film and show me how that abysmal running game ISN'T on the OL, I'll be stunned. Pass protection was as good as it's been all season, but it was far from perfect and we still don't have the time needed to really take downfield shots. This OL is still terrible, minus Thomas.
I'm really distrusting of PFF lately. These post game rankings are killing me. How is a website grading individual players, 20 minutes after the game, when the NFL do not offer any live broadcasting of all-22 film to the extent of my knowledge? You have to watch a play 20+ times to grade individual players, and you need film to do it, and they're doing it LIVE? Nope. They're watching the broadcast and making personal assessments as a result.
They need to stop doing the post-game grades because it's killing their credibility. Sure, it gets hits, but there just isn't enough time, and very likely no actual resources, to be doing what they're claiming to be doing.
If anyone can throw on some film and show me how that abysmal running game ISN'T on the OL, I'll be stunned. Pass protection was as good as it's been all season, but it was far from perfect and we still don't have the time needed to really take downfield shots. This OL is still terrible, minus Thomas.
I'm really distrusting of PFF lately. These post game rankings are killing me. How is a website grading individual players, 20 minutes after the game, when the NFL do not offer any live broadcasting of all-22 film to the extent of my knowledge? You have to watch a play 20+ times to grade individual players, and you need film to do it, and they're doing it LIVE? Nope. They're watching the broadcast and making personal assessments as a result.
They need to stop doing the post-game grades because it's killing their credibility. Sure, it gets hits, but there just isn't enough time, and very likely no actual resources, to be doing what they're claiming to be doing.
OP
OP
OconRecon
If you're juiceless, you're useless
Well, the other thing is I tend to post the positives.
On D, they hate our safeties and ability to set an edge on the D line. DD is frankly not very good. Scho is not making many tackles.
Not setting the edge + bad safeties + only one good LB = a poor D.
On O, Cam is just bad. Getting beat in the middle of the play isn't a formula for success. Other than Terrelle, our WR's have been pedestrian, since Coleman and Gordon haven't been available. QB play, well, we all know that revolving door.
League's worst center in the middle + only 1 WR threat + QB carousel = an offensive struggle.
Thus fixes in the off season:
On D,
On O,
At least if you're to believe PFF. It's not like they're the bible, but I do like it for some information to chew on. Like any football film work, sometimes it's right, and sometimes it isn't.
It seems most of what they say, like 80-90%, passes the eye test. For example...
Graded highly:
Graded high-medium:
Graded low-medium:
In the basement:
Also, they don't grade coaching, and it seems like our 3Q's, thus maybe lack of halftime adjustments, has been bad.
And as very mild consolation, we're a Terrelle taunting penalty, Duke fumble, and missed FG away from 3 wins. That's stretching it though, admittedly.
On D, they hate our safeties and ability to set an edge on the D line. DD is frankly not very good. Scho is not making many tackles.
Not setting the edge + bad safeties + only one good LB = a poor D.
On O, Cam is just bad. Getting beat in the middle of the play isn't a formula for success. Other than Terrelle, our WR's have been pedestrian, since Coleman and Gordon haven't been available. QB play, well, we all know that revolving door.
League's worst center in the middle + only 1 WR threat + QB carousel = an offensive struggle.
Thus fixes in the off season:
On D,
- Need a safety
- Need a middle linebacker
- Need an EDGE (either a rook to mature, or get a new guy)
On O,
- Need to solidify QB
- Need more dynamic and healthy WR room
- Need Cam to either suddenly get-it, Reiter to take the job, or get a new guy.
At least if you're to believe PFF. It's not like they're the bible, but I do like it for some information to chew on. Like any football film work, sometimes it's right, and sometimes it isn't.
It seems most of what they say, like 80-90%, passes the eye test. For example...
Graded highly:
- JT
- JB
- JG
- Terrelle
- Captain Kirk
- Shelton
Graded high-medium:
- Crow
- Duke
- Kessler (Hogan is actually our 2nd rated, due to that big run game, then McCown, then RGIII).
- Barny
- Taylor
- Haden
Graded low-medium:
- Howard
- BBC
- Poyer
- Campbell
- Vitale (better than Malcom Johnson, so far)
- Telfer
- Pasztor (but trending upward)
- Paea
- Nassib (flashes, but not consistant)
- Ogbah (sluggish start, but trending upward in last 2 games. They keep moving him around too)
- Bailey
- Kindred (getting beat across his face and takes more bad angle than good ones)
- DD
- Cooper
- Meder
- Cam Johnson
- Joe the Scho
- Hawkins
In the basement:
- Cam - gets blown up too often
- Ricardo - runs blocks and catches worse than Hawk, some drops, not much separation, etc.
Also, they don't grade coaching, and it seems like our 3Q's, thus maybe lack of halftime adjustments, has been bad.
And as very mild consolation, we're a Terrelle taunting penalty, Duke fumble, and missed FG away from 3 wins. That's stretching it though, admittedly.
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brownsdownunder
Fuck Cancer! R.I.P Sean Webb
Strongly disagree with the bullshit rankings for Ogbah and Nassib. They are brilliant, they just have literally nothing around them. Being only narrowly ahead of Meder and Cooper is utterly embarrassing for anyone to suggest.
Then again, it's PFF, they hate the Browns.
Then again, it's PFF, they hate the Browns.
jaydog
Football God
The kids started slow is all that reflects. They're both rookies who are improving right before our eyes. As it's supposed to go.
Lou Groza
Well-known member
EXTRA, EXTRA!!
Great Read on our OL; the way Hue is developing it & likely views it
.....based on what he built in Cincy....
SHOCKER:
Fellas, this is a real thorough & interesting read on our O-line
... suggesting CLE may NOT address it in FA or the 2017 Draft .... AT ALL.
Apparently to an "expert" CLE is loaded with developmental talent on the O-Line!
https://nflspinzone.com/2016/10/27/cleveland-browns-offensive-line-confidence/
Great Read on our OL; the way Hue is developing it & likely views it
.....based on what he built in Cincy....
SHOCKER:
Fellas, this is a real thorough & interesting read on our O-line
... suggesting CLE may NOT address it in FA or the 2017 Draft .... AT ALL.
Apparently to an "expert" CLE is loaded with developmental talent on the O-Line!
https://nflspinzone.com/2016/10/27/cleveland-browns-offensive-line-confidence/
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OP
OP
OconRecon
If you're juiceless, you're useless
Out of 76 lineman (updated today),
Pasztor is now slightly out grading Schwartz in run blocking.
Schwartz is still slightly ahead in pass blocking.
They're now only 4 apart in total ranking (27th vs 31st)
Fyi stuff. Not a huge deal, but interesting at the 1/2 way point. He's looking more and more valuable for Hue's plan as Lou's link points out.
=====
And Cam made the all worst team list for week 8.
Center: Cameron Erving, Cleveland Browns, 38.7
The Browns struggled when rushing the ball on Sunday, gaining only 58 yards on 15 carries. Erving was a big reason for that, as he consistently lost battles in the middle and failed to open up holes for his running backs. In the passing game, he allowed a sack, a hit, and three hurries.
Pasztor is now slightly out grading Schwartz in run blocking.
Schwartz is still slightly ahead in pass blocking.
They're now only 4 apart in total ranking (27th vs 31st)
Fyi stuff. Not a huge deal, but interesting at the 1/2 way point. He's looking more and more valuable for Hue's plan as Lou's link points out.
=====
And Cam made the all worst team list for week 8.
Center: Cameron Erving, Cleveland Browns, 38.7
The Browns struggled when rushing the ball on Sunday, gaining only 58 yards on 15 carries. Erving was a big reason for that, as he consistently lost battles in the middle and failed to open up holes for his running backs. In the passing game, he allowed a sack, a hit, and three hurries.
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Greythan
Yin & Yang
This plus the obvious "eye test" is what makes me question the author of the article Lou linked. In reality, Erving is playing for his NFL life every time he steps on the field.
OP
OP
OconRecon
If you're juiceless, you're useless
The more I think about it, the more I mostly agree with the Lou's referenced article. Other than Cam, we're okay here in the O-line room, or at least it's fair to say there are bigger needs on this team. Once Hue learns their +'s/-'s, gets a steady QB, and the WR's mature (Hawk is the only true WR vet), these guys will be fine. The Bitonio injury + Cam's poor play has really hampered the running game.
78 Bailey, Alvin - serviceable
75 Bitonio, Joel - elite guard, young
72 Coleman, Shon - still developing and coach's like him
64 Cooper, Jonathan - 7th overall pick just 3 years ago, has had some injuries. Potential there.
66 Drango, Spencer - best rookie O lineman, flexible
74 Erving, Cameron - prob too big for center, might be a better guard, or is just maybe no good
79 France, Dan - decent insurance policy on the PS. 6'6" young'n from the Big Ten.
77 Greco, John - above avg vet - reliable
60 Ikard, Gabe - Young UDFA center/guard from Oklahoma
67 Pasztor, Austin - always liked his size, and unlike BigErv, he's improving, and still young
62 Reiter, Austin - a life long center, hard worker, showed well
73 Thomas, Joe - HOF'r, and still a top-10 player with likely 2-4 years of play left in the tank
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OP
OP
OconRecon
If you're juiceless, you're useless
Has access to the weekly PFF grades, something us muggles don't (unless we want to pay like $250/mo). Us $20 dudes only get the season cumulative grades.
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">RT Austin Pasztor has been flipping the script past several weeks after rough start. Good PFF grades, sound technique, no holding penalties.</p>— Tim A. Miller (@Bumblyjack) <a href="https://twitter.com/Bumblyjack/status/793857522239152131">November 2, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Pasztor is an unrestricted free agent this offseason. Now's the time to start talking contract extension with his agent.</p>— Tim A. Miller (@Bumblyjack) <a href="https://twitter.com/Bumblyjack/status/793858207538089984">November 2, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Don't know what clicked for him, but Pasztor has started trusting his technique and not overselling inside or outside anymore.</p>— Tim A. Miller (@Bumblyjack) <a href="https://twitter.com/Bumblyjack/status/793858582018158592">November 2, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Shaughnessy got Jamie Collins to talk more today than he did in 4 years combined in Foxborough. Must read <a href="https://t.co/pR1upNzvZU">https://t.co/pR1upNzvZU</a></p>— Ben Volin (@BenVolin) <a href="https://twitter.com/BenVolin/status/793857191614750720">November 2, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">RT Austin Pasztor has been flipping the script past several weeks after rough start. Good PFF grades, sound technique, no holding penalties.</p>— Tim A. Miller (@Bumblyjack) <a href="https://twitter.com/Bumblyjack/status/793857522239152131">November 2, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Pasztor is an unrestricted free agent this offseason. Now's the time to start talking contract extension with his agent.</p>— Tim A. Miller (@Bumblyjack) <a href="https://twitter.com/Bumblyjack/status/793858207538089984">November 2, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Don't know what clicked for him, but Pasztor has started trusting his technique and not overselling inside or outside anymore.</p>— Tim A. Miller (@Bumblyjack) <a href="https://twitter.com/Bumblyjack/status/793858582018158592">November 2, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Shaughnessy got Jamie Collins to talk more today than he did in 4 years combined in Foxborough. Must read <a href="https://t.co/pR1upNzvZU">https://t.co/pR1upNzvZU</a></p>— Ben Volin (@BenVolin) <a href="https://twitter.com/BenVolin/status/793857191614750720">November 2, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
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brownsdownunder
Fuck Cancer! R.I.P Sean Webb
That article also mentions Coleman at RT is the plan with Pasztor and Greco fighting it out at RG.
However, Greco has been a big improvement over Erving at C for us. He'd probably still be there if Bitonio hadn't been injured, and I think it's entirely possible we'll see an interior of Drango/Greco/Bailey if Erving keeps playing like shit.
For next season though, it's certainly possible we could roll Thomas/Bitonio/Greco/Pasztor/Coleman with a high level of confidence. This is especially true with Pasztor on the uptick, because it takes pressure off Coleman's development knowing we do have a solution at RT should his development not go the way we're hoping.
I'm really high on Coleman, though. Fantastic prospect, but he does need time to develop. He'll get an opportunity, though, because you don't drop a 3rd on a guy that you don't use high.