With the 21st pick in the NFL Draft, the Cleveland Browns select Phil Taylor! | Page 5 | Barking Hard

With the 21st pick in the NFL Draft, the Cleveland Browns select Phil Taylor!

Solon16 said:
I can only state the same thing 50 times before I give up...

I am not fine with the trade down...I am fantastically ecstatic about it!!

But trading the HIGH 3rd round pick right after to move up 6 spots ....for me equates to....

finding 100 dollar bill on the ground and then getting robbed.
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I feel ya, I like him, I'm glad we got him, its just giving up that high third, and with the depth at line this draft, that's like giving up two potential starters for one.
Oh, and the "We got screwed this draft" that comes with it is going to nerve the Hell out of me.
 
No matter what anyone says about Taylor being a fit or nonfit it will all be speculation until he suits up next to Rubin or whomever and we play a game.

At this time next year we will have a good idea whether they made the right decision or not. As far as the trade up, for the hundredth time, only the people in the draft room can tell us why they moved up. It's obvious they wanted the guy and thought he was a better fit then anyone left.

That said aren't these the same people that were screaming about the Browns reaching for Ward last year and shearing about the tradeup for Hardesty.

Maybe it's just about the knee jerk reaction and love to second guess that drives them.
 
damajuki said:
Recent #70s going back five years:
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C'mon dama, that's silly.

Who is picked at 70 in past years doesn't matter. What matters is the difference in quality available for you to choose among between picks in high three and low four, and this difference is very significant.

Teams get rookie starters every year in the third while the fourth and fifth rounders are lucky to be in the league in three years.

Now seriously, would you rather pick 70 or 120?
 
Bronx Cheer said:
the difference in quality available for you to choose among between picks in high three and low four, and this difference is very significant.
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This part I disagree with. IMO the top 10 or so draftees may be measurably more talented than someone in the 70's or 100's...but after that? The differences are so tiny as to say they are NOT really measurable.

These kids have already proven they are the elite (or they wouldn't be in consideration for the draft at all in the first place). Out of thousands and thousands of players, these are the top 200 or so. I don't believe there is "significant" difference between players at 20 or players a 50. IMO THAT'S where it becomes based more on the teams needs.

Where do they need depth? What are the strengths that can be trained up, what are the weaknesses our coaches have the skills to "fix"? Do they fit with our team/scheme/ethic/whatever.

Beyond the first round, it becomes a much harder choice only because there is NOT vast differences in the talent level.
 
There's value picks in every round of the draft. You look around at the makeup of any football team and you will find first rounders, second rounders and on and on to UDFAs that make the pro bowl.

You make a good trade if the pick works out.

You can spin it all you want but the pick is only as good as the player you take and how he works out for your team. 4th rounders are scrap picks only if you blow the picks on misses. If you have UDFAs making the pro bowl then there are good picks to be had in the 4th round.
 
YtownBacker said:
There's value picks in every round of the draft. You look around at the makeup of any football team and you will find first rounders, second rounders and on and on to UDFAs that make the pro bowl.

You make a good trade if the pick works out.
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The second part means we can never judge a trade until 5 years from now. While that works out in theory, who the heck wants to wait five years to talk about this draft!? :)

As for the first part, yes ... there is value in every round. See the chart: a high third like we traded away is worth twice as much as a low third. That value is derived over years of seeing what types of production you get out of a number 70 pick versus, say, a number 95 pick. It's like the life insurance company actuarial tables.

If you are male, 35, and a smoker, you are likely to live until X. You may live to 106, you may step off a curb and get run over by an ice cream truck at 36. But the company makes money in the long run by insuring that 35 based on their table.

Should the GM be able to trust their gut? Sure. But this is a massive overpay we are talking about.
 
Apples to apples makes oranges?

Bronx Cheer said:
C'mon dama, that's silly.

Who is picked at 70 in past years doesn't matter. What matters is the difference in quality available for you to choose among between picks in high three and low four, and this difference is very significant.

Teams get rookie starters every year in the third while the fourth and fifth rounders are lucky to be in the league in three years.

Now seriously, would you rather pick 70 or 120?
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What the hell? How is it "silly" to compare #70s of years past to, uh, the #70 pick?

My point was to give context to what Solon was talking about in complaining about "wasting" the #70 pick on Taylor, a uniquely tailored physical specimen the new DC wanted for his new D-line. I clearly don't agree with him.

I see your point on 70 vs. 120 and of course I'd rather pick 70. But this also just supports my point that the talent begins to slip in the third and it only accelerates from there.

So 70 is better than 120 but it ain't as great as you guys are making it out to be and it certainly isn't as great as a potentially monster DT in the middle of our new D.
 
YtownBacker said:
No matter what anyone says about Taylor being a fit or nonfit it will all be speculation until he suits up next to Rubin or whomever and we play a game.

At this time next year we will have a good idea whether they made the right decision or not. As far as the trade up, for the hundredth time, only the people in the draft room can tell us why they moved up. It's obvious they wanted the guy and thought he was a better fit then anyone left.

That said aren't these the same people that were screaming about the Browns reaching for Ward last year and shearing about the tradeup for Hardesty.

Maybe it's just about the knee jerk reaction and love to second guess that drives them.
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Ofcourse we can't know why they did, ofcourse we'll never know. And I agree they likely felt it was a better pick than waiting.

That doesn't mean we can't question the move. And disagree with it.

and no, Solon and I were not complaining about ward last year I don't think.

And don't give me the "you just have to trust Holmgren and Heckert and company knew more than we did". YOU and others have been saying this to every person that has disagreed with a draft pick going all the way back to the early Savage and Crennel days, through Mangini and now now. Hell back then I WAS one of the people saying that to other people. To trust in Savage , to turst in Mangini. And we saw how that worked out for us as a franchise.

I don't see anything knee jerk about saying we don't like the fact they traded a 3rd round pick for a guy that either might have been there anyway or when there were other viable options if we didn't trade back up.

I still believe Holgren and Heckert are building this team the right way. I still believe Heckert is a good talent evaluator. that doesn't mean they are never going to make mistakes. Or that I can call them on it when I think they do.
 
Brown Warrior said:
It's pretty much that way every year. A lot of guys will find ways to love whatever we do and get pissed off at anyone who disagrees.
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And I was just thinking about how some of you motherfuckers take all the fun out of being a fan by beating a dead horse for three months. Once you get an idea counter to your own, this board is tsunami'd with your same take in different threads, the same threads, and new threads. I'm willing to bet you spent 25 posts already saying the same shit.

Maybe you need to make everyone to read you. Maybe you lack the situational awareness that stops you from making us suffer through the same things over and over. Whatever it is you seem to lack the understanding that you piss more people because you never stop with the same takes and points.

Once or twice in a thread or two? Cool. Every day in multiple threads with multiple posts? Please dude show some courtesy this summer and slow your role.
 
Brown Warrior said:
Y, I think you mean we'll keep picking in the 20s. Because that's what we do when we have a top 10 pick. We draft like a team that's coming off a string of 11-5 seasons.

We aren't gonna have a lot more draft picks. We had three in the first three rounds.... and we have three now. They're just different ones. We have two 4s and two 6s. Yea.

The real net gain was a 25-32 pick next year.

That's your definition of "The Right Way." Okay. Fair enough.
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Shep... you keep demeaning those 4th round picks.. YET.. for the past 6 weeks you've bee beating us over the head that this is the round you get starting cornerbacks.. Did something change???? We need cornerbacks.. so seems like we are in position to get to 2 starters according to your repeated preaching on this topic the past 6 weeks.. suddenly you seem to indicate these picks are now worthless. The way you spin things is highly amusing...(Amusing.. a substitute for bullturds)
 
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damajuki said:
Solon, I'm going to post this here, not to be a pain but to make sure it gets seen. I think you are barking up (ha! punny!) the wrong tree with this #70 thing.

Recent #70s going back five years:

2010 BLT TE Ed Dickson

2009 CIN DE Michael Johnson

2008 CHI WR Earl Bennett

2007 DEN OT Ryan Harris

2006 BUF CB Ashton Youboty

Okay, I'm officially bored already. Do you concede? Are you pumped up by any of these guys?

I agree with your general point about not wasting picks moving around but I can't get behind your #70 point based on this sample.
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And Colt McCoy went when? forget joe montana...Colt McCoy went later than #70... LOOK..go be a sheep and trust the H&H guys, just like Mangy/kok, just like savage, just like butch and pedro, and just like clark,and the godfather...SAVE it!!!...fact is Only suckers give up that much! 6 Spots we moved up...and gave up early third rounder.

That said if Taylor is a pro bowler Its all good...if he's a JAG its hiway robbery ;)
 
Taylor just held his press conference in Berea. He's a monster and a bit funny. He said he understood the rivalry between Pittsburgh and Cleveland and he respects Big Ben but when we play them he's going to take him down.

He is friends with Joe Haden from HS and has a connection with Norwood from Penn State. He was pimping the Browns to take Bowers with the #37 pick. They are friends.
 
Brown Warrior said:
Wanting playmakers for the current Cleveland Browns, the 31st scoring team, is also known as "common sense."

The bottom line, Grey, is that instead of 6, 37, and 70, we'll get 21, 37, and 59. It's the truth. That's what will show up at training camp. Oh, and that late 4th round pick.

And next year, we'll add a 30th pick or something. Genius? Exciting?

If you insist. I sincerely appreciate the optimism. I find it a little harder every year.
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I'd love to have Claustrich tossing pigskin into the turf, and off Julio's facemask this season. Surefire way to end up with a chance at nabbing a real playmaker at #1 next year.
 
Did I really just see this "It's pretty much that way every year. A lot of guys will find ways to love whatever we do and get pissed off at anyone who disagrees."

Wow, kind of like someone finding a way to hate on everything CLE does (pick Haden and Ward, pass on Clausen and Dez, taking noodle arm McCoy) and get pissed off (or try to piss off other) complaining about CLE not doing what they think they should have done. All the while losing perspective they are a no one fan with next to no clue on judging real NFL talent. Seriously, if you don't realize that you just bitched about what you do you self, you have zero self awareness. The pot just called me, he want me to remind you kettle, you are black too.
 
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damajuki said:
Solon, I'm going to post this here, not to be a pain but to make sure it gets seen. I think you are barking up (ha! punny!) the wrong tree with this #70 thing.

Recent #70s going back five years:

2010 BLT TE Ed Dickson

2009 CIN DE Michael Johnson

2008 CHI WR Earl Bennett

2007 DEN OT Ryan Harris

2006 BUF CB Ashton Youboty

Okay, I'm officially bored already. Do you concede? Are you pumped up by any of these guys?

I agree with your general point about not wasting picks moving around but I can't get behind your #70 point based on this sample.
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how about jermichael finley, jamal charles, tony moeaki, mike wallace...
 
Phil Taylor press conference.

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Ah, here's the list

Solon16 said:
how about jermichael finley, jamal charles, tony moeaki, mike wallace...
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Nice list. No doubt guys are available in the 3rd.

I picked 70 for a reason, though. That's our pick. If you went up and done the 3rd round, OF COURSE you will find guys. There's no argument there.

I'm really only picking on you because you seem to have given ZERO credence/time/thought/electrons to the key point here: PHIL TAYLOR IS UNIQUE IN THIS DRAFT.

There might be other players who are good, but there weren't many (if any) or are as big and fast. So you keep saying "We could have waited and gotten someone in the 1st and 3rd" but you discount completely the fact there was only ONE Phil Taylor.

Do I expect you to like every pick? Of course not. But I would love to hear WHY you didn't like THIS pick besides just repeating you wanted to keep the 3rd round pick.

And am I sheep/apologist? Of course! What choice do I have? What the hell do I know about how good these guys are? And why would it matter anyway? I'm a fan. I'm excited about new hope. That's what the draft is for, after all.
 
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