Enigmatic Evil
Mr. Censor
What's the dirt on him, that blurb Shep shared kind of screams a lesser Peppers to me...
Pick #4 Denzel Ward
- Thread starter KJP
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Enigmatic Evil
Mr. Censor
He's probably a more natural safety but just reading that blurb Shep shared, he sounds like he could wreck some shit in the box if you asked him to.
Martin Eden
Well-known member
This is the team we've been waiting for. I love the OC and DC. I'm not sure Hue can fuck it up. We'll see, of course, but damn we got some talent. Last year, our WR corpse was nothing short of horrific. This year we're busting at the seams. It looks like the defensive backfield will be much better, and that's going to be huge, even if they're only decent.
I sure wish Joe had stuck around for one more.
Shep
Well-known member
My son drops into my office every day and we basically have the same conversation: Where is this team not really good? Every level on both sides of the ball is extremely well stocked.
I know some fans think we'll start losing now that Joe Thomas is gone but I have some issues with that logic (!). I'm sometimes stunned how many "franchise (NON-QB)" players are utterly irreplaceable on ordinary or downright bad teams.
I know some fans think we'll start losing now that Joe Thomas is gone but I have some issues with that logic (!). I'm sometimes stunned how many "franchise (NON-QB)" players are utterly irreplaceable on ordinary or downright bad teams.
Brownsfan
Continuity Please!
I wish this could have happened years ago so that Joe could have enjoyed playing for a winner. He deserved it.
Brownsfan
Continuity Please!
Football is the ultimate team sport. Even Super Bowl winning quarterbacks like Drew Brees and Eli Manning can be pulled down from a lack of talent around them. It isn't surprising that one of the greatest lineman in the history of the NFL could be similarly pulled down from a lack of talent around him. Great teams must have great talent at most positions and at least good talent everywhere. Considering the talent we suddenly have this year throughout the team, we should be at least competitive with most teams we play.
Shep
Well-known member
We're saying the same thing from different directions: There are scads of teams in this modern era (after 2003) with great quarterbacks and fairly anonymous LTs who made it to the Super Bowl and even won. Teams that won consistently throughout those 15 years.
But it does not work the other way around. The Browns have fielded a Hall of Fame LT who is objectively one of the best who ever played the position... but had the worst record in pro football over that time.
Between Couch and Mayfield, the total number of QBs we drafted in the top 20: zero. Just saw our Passer Rating for this Millennium and it's staggeringly bad, especially the past decade since our highwater mark of 17th in 2007. So many 32s and (as I recall) never better than 25th. In a QB league.
It's absurd and hardly a coincidence, and that time is littered with trade-downs and terror of drafting Big Ben or Rodgers or Wentz, etc.
You really can't discuss the Browns' failings without Point #1 being about the QB position. We've had great LTs, great centers, great CBs, great just about everything at some point or another, but definitely not a great QB. Again, in a QB league.
So basically nothing else mattered unless it's all about what jersey to buy.
But it does not work the other way around. The Browns have fielded a Hall of Fame LT who is objectively one of the best who ever played the position... but had the worst record in pro football over that time.
Between Couch and Mayfield, the total number of QBs we drafted in the top 20: zero. Just saw our Passer Rating for this Millennium and it's staggeringly bad, especially the past decade since our highwater mark of 17th in 2007. So many 32s and (as I recall) never better than 25th. In a QB league.
It's absurd and hardly a coincidence, and that time is littered with trade-downs and terror of drafting Big Ben or Rodgers or Wentz, etc.
You really can't discuss the Browns' failings without Point #1 being about the QB position. We've had great LTs, great centers, great CBs, great just about everything at some point or another, but definitely not a great QB. Again, in a QB league.
So basically nothing else mattered unless it's all about what jersey to buy.
Stylepoints
Memento Mori
It is funny you say that because especially Eli Manning strikes me as a qb who rode the big wave of his team mates to two superbowls.
You need a good line but a single good lineman isnt going to change the game. You will need a good qb but that alone wont cut it.
Its a team sport and football should be seen as position groups. Dbs, lbs, pass rushers and interior linemen on defense. Receivers blockers runners and qb on offense. Coverage and return units on special teams.
Im not saying all is equal but the qb group has one guy, the runners have two or three. The dbs have four to five.
Enigmatic Evil
Mr. Censor
I do too but from the way he talks about it on the ThomaHawk show, he doesn't have any regrets.
I know there's cause for excitement and I'm not trying to just be a wet blanket but I can't shake it lol
Martin Eden
Well-known member
Shep, Shep, Shep. . . having a great left tackle is a good thing, like every other position on a team. Just because having a great QB is more important than having a great left tackle, that does not mean it's not a good thing to have a great left tackle. Every position is important. Don't discount how much Joe could have meant to a better team. We should have tried him at QB.
Shep
Well-known member
Doesn't change the point, though, Martin: Some of the winningest teams of the past decade manage to compete year in and year out without a "franchise left tackle." And yes, every time you field one of the best anything-else-but-QB for long, and pay him at the very top of the position...
Well, you'll be spending more there than the best teams and less than those teams somewhere else. The composition of your cap will be in the non-contender group rather than the contender group.
John Clayton wrote a fantastic piece about that like a decade ago or more: How a great organization manages it's cap is vital and not at all an accident, not something they made up as they went along.
Ideally, your best and highest paid player is a quarterback because the best teams are generally the teams with the best quarterbacks. You can't get that bang for your buck anywhere else and you really can't say the same about any other position. After that, left tackle used to be in that next group along with pass rusher, #1 corner, and #1 WR (sensing a trend here, it's about the passing game).
That said, the league is evolving away from clustering cap with any one lineman because it's not a single front war anymore. It's a chess game with a lot of pieces, the passing game on both sides of the ball. And that changes cap composition too. You want multiple quality targets, multiple quality pass protectors, multiple cover guys, and multiple pass rushers... which means no one guy should eat up too much of your cap.
It's mid evolution but definitely something personnel guys discuss. Very much the Patriot way. Time to get overpaid? See ya, pass rusher, left tackle, CB, and linebacker.
Best Wishes,
Shep Shep Shep (!)
Well, you'll be spending more there than the best teams and less than those teams somewhere else. The composition of your cap will be in the non-contender group rather than the contender group.
John Clayton wrote a fantastic piece about that like a decade ago or more: How a great organization manages it's cap is vital and not at all an accident, not something they made up as they went along.
Ideally, your best and highest paid player is a quarterback because the best teams are generally the teams with the best quarterbacks. You can't get that bang for your buck anywhere else and you really can't say the same about any other position. After that, left tackle used to be in that next group along with pass rusher, #1 corner, and #1 WR (sensing a trend here, it's about the passing game).
That said, the league is evolving away from clustering cap with any one lineman because it's not a single front war anymore. It's a chess game with a lot of pieces, the passing game on both sides of the ball. And that changes cap composition too. You want multiple quality targets, multiple quality pass protectors, multiple cover guys, and multiple pass rushers... which means no one guy should eat up too much of your cap.
It's mid evolution but definitely something personnel guys discuss. Very much the Patriot way. Time to get overpaid? See ya, pass rusher, left tackle, CB, and linebacker.
Best Wishes,
Shep Shep Shep (!)
nickers
Nick@Nite
As much as I hate to admit it.. I think Ghoolie was spot on when he said O Lineman are a dime a dozen.... I'm not saying they aren't important... or , trying to underscore the position.. But as been well documented.. No Championships with Joe at the helm of LT.
Martin Eden
Well-known member
Great offensive lines contribute greatly to super bowl champions.
Miami, SB VII - VIII, back to back. 2 HOFers on O-line
Dallas, SB XXVII, XXVIII, Dominant O-line
There are more. Those two went back to back. I'm still of the opinion that the best way to build a lasting, successful program is to invest heavily in the O-line. And be fortunate in the QB sweepstakes.
Miami, SB VII - VIII, back to back. 2 HOFers on O-line
Dallas, SB XXVII, XXVIII, Dominant O-line
There are more. Those two went back to back. I'm still of the opinion that the best way to build a lasting, successful program is to invest heavily in the O-line. And be fortunate in the QB sweepstakes.
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Brownsfan
Continuity Please!
I think it depends largely on the offensive system.
If you have an offense such as a WCO or Erhardt-Perkins that feature mainly short quick passes, it may not much matter as long as your line is decent. For example, New England does not need a dominate OL since Brady gets the pass off so quickly.
On the other hand, suppose you want to run a downfield passing attack such as an Air Coryell based largely on seven step drop timed passes. In that case, a dominate OL is critical. The correct answer to this question, like so many other questions, is that it depends on what you want to do and how you want to do it.
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Shep
Well-known member
Ghoolie was overstating to get a reaction... but he ended up a bit ahead of his time, really. As teams invest more in centers and right tackles and interior OL, they'll be less anxious to throw 15 mill a year at a LT. They'll be looking at the line in the Packers way, which was (for literally decades) about a cohesive unit they could keep together, zone blocking athletes with smarts who didn't require a 1st round pick in most cases.
Carolina is developing that reputation too.
Carolina is developing that reputation too.
Stylepoints
Memento Mori
One lineman doesnt make the difference. The unit has to be solid. Just like the whole pass defense unit needs to be good to stop the pass.
Compared to the qb, there are 5 to 6 blockers on a given play but only one passer and 3 to 5 catchers. You can fix the passing part with one new qb, but to fix the blocking part you need 5 to 6 guys to work together. Thats why qb is more valuable than LT.
Compared to the qb, there are 5 to 6 blockers on a given play but only one passer and 3 to 5 catchers. You can fix the passing part with one new qb, but to fix the blocking part you need 5 to 6 guys to work together. Thats why qb is more valuable than LT.
Enigmatic Evil
Mr. Censor
We've seen it enough times during Joe's tenure that one elite lineman does not make a ton of difference especially when one or more of the line may be a liability. We've had top-of-league OL's and garbage offenses and we've had even worse OL's...
Fact is, there's a myriad of factors that it's not really fair to try and single one out because it's like a car... part of that engine goes, the whole things probably going to go.
Fact is, there's a myriad of factors that it's not really fair to try and single one out because it's like a car... part of that engine goes, the whole things probably going to go.
nickers
Nick@Nite
Teams go as their QB goes.. End of Story!