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The Offensive Line

Greythan said:
The revisionining keeps spinning it seems. I get its all about making an emotionally damaged group feel better but do we really need to make shit up to feel better?

We offered him a deal above what he signed elsewhere.
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I'm sure that's why his brother was so pissed at the Browns (!). C'mon, man!!
 
Greythan said:
Dawg, you really have to stop defending the kid's utter failure last year as a product of circumstances. He was blown up in every phase of OL play as the first interior OL taken in his class.
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Grey...I am not saying he did well. Hell, that would be stupid...but even in this quote saying how bad he was it points out two things that have been overlooked:

On the season, Erving played in a total of 222 snaps starting two games. Because of his poor performances of constantly getting beat on pass and bull rushes, the Browns benched Erving in favor of Austin Pasztor. However, in his defense, he only gave up one sack during his stint at guard.
Read more at http://cover32.com/2016/01/20/2015-...aft-picks-cameron-erving/#2gc3ogytmxY4EFRo.99
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So...as I stated...put a guy that struggles on bull rush into a system that does poorly against bull rushes...equates to disaster. But the funny part is the sacks. On 222 plays, he gave up 1 sack. The Browns passed on over 60% of the plays, so that means he gave up 1 sack in over 130 pass plays. He may not have been good, but at least he wasn't a human turnstyle to the QB.

I really think giving him 1 position (one he has experience in) and 1 scheme (one he is suited for) will go a long way. Along with additional weight training and better footwork, hell...he could be very good. But again..it IS still prognosticating by either of us.
 
Greythan said:
The revisionining keeps spinning it seems. I get its all about making an emotionally damaged group feel better but do we really need to make shit up to feel better?

We offered him a deal above what he signed elsewhere.
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To be fair, we do not actually know for a fact that cle offered more.
 
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Irving needs to play better. that's what needs to happen. I understand the different blocking schemes, he wasn't winning his matchups.

- - - Updated - - -

news flASH

Swartz is gone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_JF8oSxXtM
 
DawgFan said:
but at least he wasn't a human turnstyle to the QB.
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I watched every snap he played last year so when a 3rd party website credits him with one sack.... I don't find that a compelling defense. He was a visual, graphic-level disaster last year when he played. Put it this way, reviewing film on Monday in the OL room would have sucked balls if you were Cam. Just play after play of him getting stood up, pushed into the backfield, and plays getting broken down.

I'm cheering for the kid but there's just no way to sit back and say, "He was out of position and asked to prep for too many positions. Otherwise, I think he'll be great as our starting center this year." Nope, that's not even a reach; its denial. He has to take a geometric leap in all phases to be starter material. I'm hoping he can.
 
Shep said:
I'm sure that's why his brother was so pissed at the Browns (!). C'mon, man!!
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Look, people seem to hate that I don't just sit back and sing kumbaya everytime someone posts Schwartz deserted us for bigger money.

The data available to us does not support that story. To Masters point, and a point I've made repeatedly, we simply do not know how that negotiation went down. The narrative fits his brother's comments about monkey business being in regard to a pulled offer just as well as it fits it being a smokescreen for Mitchell to have screwed us.

Chris Carter would be ashamed of the "C'mon man" usage on this one Shep. ;)
 
I'll agree to disagree. Playing out of position after being required to study ALL positions, and in multiple schemes sets you up to be unsure of yourself. In any sport...if you are unsure, you are at a distinct disadvantage and more likely to fail.
 
DawgFan said:
I disagree wholeheartedly on this one. ZBS requires that you do not directly engage, but rather use lateral movement to manipulate the position of the defender allowing the RB to 'cut back' into holes created. It is all about keeping the entire line in unison and creating a ton of movement. It also takes the OL off their base and it is susceptible to bull rushing, but it is effective when the entire OL works together.

Power Gap is a 1 on 1 or 2 on 1 scheme in which you are responsible for certain gaps. It allows each individual on the OL to key on a particular defender and to know if help is coming or if they are one on one. This emphasis on particular assignments makes it a much easier scheme for new players to assimilate into the OL.

Erving was known to need work on bull rushing, and then they put him into a scheme that is susceptible to bull rushes, and in a position he has never played. Sorry, but that changes the entire dynamic.
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Greythan, there's this thoughtful post you wanna go to war with over the idea of giving Erving excuses.
Before that a few comments up, you're being naive as fuck over the Schwartz FA - using 'revisionist' and 'making shit up' when it's pretty much just you now that's still in the dark on the matter... a head-in-the-sand thing going on with you.

Wise up son!

Grey, you're a decent poster. Better than this pansy shit.
You helped AO get run, and while he was often a pain in the ass, he brought some value... he was right a lot about the Farmer days.
And I liked his opinion on players, WRs and opinion leading to the draft.
I learned to not attack all the differences I had with his negative shit.
I mostly attack hard the negative shit that I differ with that others here are susceptible to buy.
With AO, almost the entire board was against his consistent negativity, so I found I didn't have to fight.

It's guys like you Greythan, and BDU, that I've caught the need to jump on in recent months with an extreme negative take,
back in Free Agency. You guys are a lot more influential on the board than AO.

You're voice-of-the-people types, especially BDU has a great knack for that, but you too Greythan. And with that comes responsibility.
When you guys get too hot, it can effect half the guy's opinions on this board.

Wise up and take your head outta the sand on the Schwartz free agency. At a minimum, his agent was an ass and screwed him on resigning with the Browns... at worst, he himself was in on treating CLE as a pawn. Be Done With Him. Good Riddance, MFer.
Have you caught wind of his brother - the dude is a total dipshit asshole! (his brother)

And when you get good reason from DawgFan on Cam Erving's rookie struggles, don't fight it....
read the post above my comments that I've quoted... and accept it. It makes total sense.
And while we shouldn't yet fully trust Erving... he should have a 2nd chance to play the position he's most capable of... Center.
His Rookie year was screwy, getting trained in 3-5 positions on the line from Day 1 without focusing on one.
It was never cool the way he was getting blown off the ball, but some guys have a way to change that beyond their first months in the NFL. Erving at least deserves a full opportunity to be one of those guys that changes that before we're all down on him about busting.
 
Masters said:
Toughest be fair, we do not actually know for a fact that cle offered more.
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What do we ever know as fact in NFL contract negotiations Masters?
To be fair, we know nothing as fact in them until someone's signed some papers that become available to the public (a contract).

All we know is what's reported, and we can assume that as fact as long as it's from a reputable source, or we can play conspiracy theorist and deny to believe the report... that's what this amounts to.
In my opinion, when the report comes and it makes sense on all fronts as to the info we do know... then the report is good as fact.

In Schwartz's case, someone reputable like Rapaport or Schefter reported that CLE had their best offer tabled to Schwartz to begin FA that WED at noon. Schwartz was likely aware of that number at least the night before, maybe even the week before (as FA's could talk with teams, the "legal tampering" period) or weeks before, as CLE was able to negotiate with their FA-to-be at anytime and in fact were in negotiations with Schwartz (and Mack, and Gipson, and Benjamin) for weeks and months leading up to FA Wednesday, the kickoff.

So Schwartz has his offer and his agent shops it, and nobody will beat it or even match. KC comes in just under CLE's offer & won't budge. (think now... Are they doing this because they have word He Wants Out Of Cleveland??)
Cleveland then ups their already top offer in good faith to get the deal done, but before signing Schwartz's agent wants to make a few more phone calls. So CLE pulls their offer!

This is what was reported by reputable source. It fits all the contexts of what we know to be true around the negotiations.

So what's not to believe?
are you just being dummies? Knuckleheaded for fun?? ...what is this lunacy you, Greythan and Masters, are up to?
 
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Quote Originally Posted by Lou Groza View Post
When you guys (Greythan and BDU) get too hot, it can effect half the guy's opinions on this board.

hammertime said:
really? im not seeing that at all.
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Not at this moment. Go back a couple months to free agency, it was happening for a week or so there.
People were not happy at all about losing all our FAs that were valuable to us. Understood.
There were a few voices of reason, talking money and how we can move on eventually better for not having them....
and there were the strong-positioned, fired up ones stoking the fire, fanning the flames.
Were it up to them that week and the drone fans, the Harvard Crew wouldn't have even made it to the Draft to rectify it all.

I didn't appreciate the RANTING that stoked the flames, so I combated it --especially with BDU, in the moment-- because I saw it as setting a detrimental tone to the future of our new FO....


We, as fan, gotta get fully behind our FO & Coaches, at least early on. We can't be having Jimmy offing them every few years if we hope to compete in our Division. We got a great bunch in FINALLY... and I want to support them THRU EVERYTHING. They're a truly GREAT bunch of guys.


Hopefully the very hardest days are now over. That Free Agency period was really rough, but we will truly be better w/o them.

But there are still tough days ahead. Trading the Joes... if it's to be done, and I do believe it is with this brilliant FO who will take the page from Belichick on parting with studs for good returns before it's too late. Those will be two tough days for a lot of fans. Gut-checks.


Let's mentally try to get to a place to be understanding and allow for those gut-checks. I think most of us are getting there.
The trades will come before we're ready to say goodbye, I think.
For instance, we may very well trade JT at the deadline this losing season, and not refill the LT position until the draft.
We may trade Joe Haden when his stock gets back up, and not replace him till the next Free Agency.

For those of you still wondering, Sashi did say that they believe in timely adding in Free Agency... it's not always going to be a loss.
But they understand that additions need very much to be done in the Draft.
Our adding in the future may be much more like key fiscally responsible young additions like LB Danny Trevathan than top $$ guys.
And that's Great. That's what we really need. Wants will get you in trouble in FA.
 
What, we have a bunch of children here who need Lou to defend themselves?

What don't you ask Dawg if he needs help dialoguing with me? He and I go back long before you showed up here and I already know.... he's fine. Hell, he said so. The entire purpose of this forum is to debate, discuss, laugh, and enjoy.

Mind your own business Lou; that's plenty to keep you busy.
 
Greythan said:
Mind your own business Lou
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Funny you of all people would say this.
You certainly didn't do that virtually every week getting in sissy-fit spats with AO.
ALL THE TIME. It was immature, sophomoric, and soooo annooooooying dude.

YOU really helped AO get run. I hope he comes back, I doubt he will. His different opinion added to the board, even if it sounded like a baby crying some weeks. And he had enough good stuff he brought, he was marginally worth having around.

You know this is a public board, yeah?
So it doesn't fit then that once you get scolded, you make it out to be a convo you were having with someone else and it wasn't my place to comment. Public board, dude.... you know you can PM on here if you really want to for private convo, right? Did you know that?

I just want to hold you accountable to swaying the board in a negative way, like when several were going off the deep end during free agency.
(I think you were one. I know BDU was)

You guys have a voice of the people (that's a compliment)
....but my point is, with that there's a responsibility.
And I don't know about you, but I don't want this bunch in Berea on the hot seat anytime soon, so I'll stand up for them when needed, like in Free Agency.

We'll be better off not being heavily invested in Mack, Schwartz, Gipson for the back half of their careers.
This draft help offset/reset those losses. Especially Benjamin... 2-3 times over!
 
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Brownsfan1956 said:
I agree he has women to slap around and physically intimidate etc...whoops sorry that truth telling thing gets me in trouble alllllll the time. :wave:

Lou give the piosity a rest. You of all people have one helluva glass house
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You don't judge me or decide what house I have, ol' man. Get back to that pipebag you were blowin'... or that hole in yer wall

there's a U in that word you made up
 
next2nothing said:
AO was banned for what AO did. No other poster influenced or help cause the banning.

Let's keep it on o-line talk. ;)
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well I must've missed it. Wish I understood better what got him banned.

You'd think the way the bullshit carried on over the past year that both Greythan and Hammer would've at least got a little time out too. That ninny shit that was carrying on weekly, seemingly daily, was a hinderance to this forum.
 
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Lou Groza said:
I just want to hold you accountable to swaying the board in a negative way, like when several were going off the deep end during free agency.
(I think you were one. I know BDU was)

You guys have a voice of the people (that's a compliment)
....but my point is, with that there's a responsibility.
And I don't know about you, but I don't want this bunch in Berea on the hot seat anytime soon, so I'll stand up for them when needed, like in Free Agency.

We'll be better off not being heavily invested in Mack, Schwartz, Gipson for the back half of their careers.
This draft help offset/reset those losses. Especially Benjamin... 2-3 times over!
Click to expand...


I was responsibly bringing it back .... this is along the subject of Oline, investing in Oline...
mentioning the main problem being the week of free agency... putting it in perspective
 
Lou Groza said:

Funny you of all people would say this.
You certainly didn't do that virtually every week getting in sissy-fit spats with AO.
ALL THE TIME. It was immature, sophomoric, and soooo annooooooying dude.

YOU really helped AO get run. I hope he comes back, I doubt he will. His different opinion added to the board, even if it sounded like a baby crying some weeks. And he had enough good stuff he brought, he was marginally worth having around.

You know this is a public board, yeah?
So it doesn't fit then that once you get scolded, you make it out to be a convo you were having with someone else and it wasn't my place to comment. Public board, dude.... you know you can PM on here if you really want to for private convo, right? Did you know that?

I just want to hold you accountable to swaying the board in a negative way, like when several were going off the deep end during free agency.
(I think you were one. I know BDU was)

You guys have a voice of the people (that's a compliment)
....but my point is, with that there's a responsibility.
And I don't know about you, but I don't want this bunch in Berea on the hot seat anytime soon, so I'll stand up for them when needed, like in Free Agency.

We'll be better off not being heavily invested in Mack, Schwartz, Gipson for the back half of their careers.
This draft help offset/reset those losses. Especially Benjamin... 2-3 times over!
Click to expand...



It's not so much what AO said Lou.. It's how he said it with his better than thou attitude. He acted like only his opinion mattered and was the end all . be all. And he was smug and condescending toward other posters. Hence why I called him Reverend Trask.
 
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Lou Groza said:
It's guys like you Greythan, and BDU, that I've caught the need to jump on in recent months with an extreme negative take,
back in Free Agency. You guys are a lot more influential on the board than AO.

You're voice-of-the-people types, especially BDU has a great knack for that, but you too Greythan. And with that comes responsibility.
When you guys get too hot, it can effect half the guy's opinions on this board.
Click to expand...

My opinion is my own. The same is true for Grey. We log into a forum, we give our opinions, we log off and continue living our lives. That's it. It's not our fault if anyone wants to put emphasis on it. Frankly, half the time I can't even remember what I posted about the last time I was online. If my opinion is effecting half the board, they probably need to remember that 90% of the time I'm posting drunk and without wearing pants. I am not Bill Belichick. None of us are. Don't take it so seriously.

I wanted to resign Scwartz, but I've embraced Shon Coleman, and I hope he's a stud. He actually liked a tweet I sent him saying something like "Shon kicked cancers ass, you think a pass rusher scares him? Fuck Cancer."
 
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